Quantcast

Censored name?

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

JeffS

Active Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
Are links to CKtG being blocked? Just curious after the link here.
 

Dave Martell

Forum Founder
Professional Craftsman
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
14,037
Reaction score
858
Location
Airville, PA
I've recently made the decision to block all links going to any business related site operated by Chef Knives To Go. This decision was made for several reasons that I will not go into detail over.

Mark Richmond is not, and has not been, welcome here at KKF and now links to his websites are no longer welcome here as well.

I'm sorry for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Dave
 

JeffS

Active Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
Good to know. I'm guessing this applies to links only and we are still perfectly fine talking about products over there. Yes?
 

Dave Martell

Forum Founder
Professional Craftsman
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
14,037
Reaction score
858
Location
Airville, PA
Good to know. I'm guessing this applies to links only and we are still perfectly fine talking about products over there. Yes?

Yes absolutely, I don't want anyone to censor themselves with regards to talking about knives, etc.
 

rockbox

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
395
Reaction score
2
I think you are screwing some of the knife makers on the board because they still have a relationship with Mark and sell their goods through him.
 

kalaeb

Banned
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
2,323
Reaction score
1
Certainly I agree that any forum owner can do what they like, but it should be considered that blocking anything from said site can directly affect well established and credible contributors on this forum: Rader, Thomas, and potentially more. While I realize this is not a democracy, can't we be a little more laissez faire?
 

Dave Martell

Forum Founder
Professional Craftsman
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
14,037
Reaction score
858
Location
Airville, PA
I've considered everything that can be considered in this matter and while I prefer NOT to take this action (as I have since the beginning) I now feel it's the only choice I can make given the circumstances.

I knew that this wouldn't be popular, I knew that it will make me look bad, I know that many vendors work with him and this will not help their efforts but yet I still felt the need to do it anyway.
 

Marko Tsourkan

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
4,964
Reaction score
29
I think you are screwing some of the knife makers on the board because they still have a relationship with Mark and sell their goods through him.
I don't see how this would prevent a maker to post a note on his sup-forum (or a member to post a note for him - it's becoming almost customary) that a particular knife is available at CKTG. To find products on CKTG website is not difficult and one also can call and do the purchase (or be guided to) over the phone.

So I honestly don't see how this would 'screw' anybody.

M
 

Eamon Burke

Banned
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
4,855
Reaction score
9
*edit *

my bad, there's another thread about my question.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Eamon Burke

Banned
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
4,855
Reaction score
9
Marko, it would keep them from doing that, because you can't tell anyone what "CKTG" is, because it looks like this: **************.com


I admittedly forgot that you stated you began this forum with a "small is beautiful" motif, and I whether I agree or not, I don't see anything wrong with that concept. But the thing is, what am I, as a part of this community, supposed to do when the "little guys" equals nobody. I recently tried to suggest someone buy a Tojiro Shirogami Nakiri. In line with this level of censorship, I should have said to myself "boy, there is a great knife for this guy, but too bad I can't tell him about it." because there is one website on the internet that sells it, amongst other things. Is the CCK1303 relegated to an artifact of the good old days, even though someone keeps them in stock?

I get that you don't like him, but his store is one that sells things people want, and some things exclusively.



There are ways of handling this that don't involve you doing to Mark the same kind of thing people did to you before. Heck, post a sticky saying "list of sites we don't like" or something, and explain to new guys why you choose to support businesses as small as possible.

Google "Kitchen knife". He's on the front page. You will never kill his website, there will always be new people here bringing it up, and this issue will never die.



My problem is not that you don't want your forum supporting CKTG, it's that there are things that CKTG has that you, or ANYONE else carries. Want to suggest Chromium Oxide paste? The aforementioned CCK cleaver or Tojiro White Steel Nakiri? Too bad!

I don't like your personal/professional issues affecting this community's ability to grow and be the way it wants, but even if I did, this isn't workable. It's simply not a long-term solution.


*edit* A good example of the kind of thing I was suggesting is Straightrazorplace.com's sticky about Gold Dollar razors.
 

SpikeC

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
3,717
Reaction score
2
I agree with Marko, not having a link to a site does not stop someone from going there, and references in posts aren't censored as far as I can tell.
 

Eamon Burke

Banned
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
4,855
Reaction score
9
I only posted revised copypasta here from the other thread, but I get the idea now that Dave only wants to keep from having links to cktg? Not to quell discussion of it? I know posting links on other webpages is good for their search engine data, and posting links to CKTG here would be, effectively, free promotional advertising to the general public.

My feelings on this issue may be coming off that I am a CKTG fanboy, but I am just not on the "for side" in this issue. Heck, I don't shop at Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot, Sears, 7-11, Quik-Trip, the list goes on. I don't buy store brand products(unless I am a complete broke ass and feeding my kids. When I was single I'd rather starve). I certainly get the concern. I love that Mark has a focus of just giving customers what they want, but I do also understand how that can go wrong for the people, by dominating so highly you suffocate every market. I am planning and forming my own business, and I appreciate business success, but I think there needs to be a "stop-point" for growth.

Is there some way to keep from editing it out of the posts themselves, like some kind of Voldemort scheme? My official suggestion is that if you have a way to prevent links to large super-retailers, then do it, and post a sticky with a list of the sites considered "too big".
 

Marko Tsourkan

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
4,964
Reaction score
29
Comes to mind how in the past news spread about JWW having Shigefusa for sale. There would be a post like "JWW has one 240mm Kitaeji Gyuto for Sale. Call Jennie" and then next minute, you are on the phone calling. So, why can't, say, Devin, Michael or Pierre post something in their sub forum saying that their knives are available at CKTG? I honestly see no reason why they wouldn't. I would would, if I were in their shoes.

Why do you guys have to have a link to a product? There is a Search Box in almost every site, so just type in what you are looking for and it will take you to the product.

M
 

UglyJoe

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
426
Reaction score
1
JD, I don't think the issue is so much that Mark's store is too big, but that he sells himself as an expert in knives when he simply isn't, and that that can lead to major problems for customers and others. For instance, there have been several threads about Moritaka grind issues that have cropped up the past few weeks. On the other forum, when these issues were coming to light, Mark basically told everyone to buy from him and he would check every knife he sold to make sure you got a "good one". Nevertheless, many of those "checked" knives had the grind issues, inexperienced users bought and used them from CKtG, and then after a few sharpenings or a trip to Dave's they realized they had dud knives. Furthermore there has been issues in the past where others who have spent a lot of time, money, and effort selecting sharpening equipment, particularly stones, and once the stones were established as stones that customers wanted by those who had tested them and suggested them, Mark kind of swooped in and undercut the other vendors by just a few dollars, making their effort and work wasted. And then there are things like natural stones, where Mark is clearly not an expert at all, doesn't test the stones to the extent that say Maxim does, but sells lots of them to people who really don't know what they need in a natural, etc.

The idea behind these forums and the vendors that Dave wants to promote is that they really know what they are talking about and have a passion for knives first and running a business to make money second. In general, vendors like that are going to cost more - they put more attention to detail with every customer transaction, and are willing to talk customers through to knives, etc. that they don't even sell. I've experienced this a few times with vendors here myself. Because of the additional costs associated with running a business this way, these types of vendors are the ones who are most hurt by CKtG, because their items typically sell for 5-10% more, and that's generally enough to push many buyers to the lower priced item, regardless of service. As such CKtG is kind of in direct opposition to what Dave is trying to foster here, and ergo I have no problem with Dave not wanted that site linked to from here.
 

mr drinky

Founding Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
3,544
Reaction score
13
Mark at CKTG sells a copy of that one.

You can also make one yourself. A simple broomstick handle with a notch cut in it works wonders. Careful with tips though - snappy stuff. :)
This was a quote from an earlier post where Dave even mentions CKTG about a knife straightener. I'll give Dave the benefit of the doubt here as I think there are some delicate issues that make this a difficult decision.

With that said, the lack of Mark's Shop being mentioned here has driven me to his facebook page/commercial site more often and I also check knifeforums just to peek at what is going on over there (as I am sure he checks this site out). A lot of actions have unintended consequences.

k.
 

Eamon Burke

Banned
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
4,855
Reaction score
9
The reason I am saying that it isn't a solution is because there is no way to tell people who aren't in the existing in-crowd what the hell "cktg" means. It was the most annoying part of learning about knives(or anything) on forums. People saying "If you want a ffg 240 j-blade in vg-10, get a DP from cktg and send it to jks." You can't Google these things, and by requiring we use some indescribable acronym easily crosses the line from convenient to elitist. A sticky explaining what CKTG, HA, and whatever else makes the prohibition list and why you can't speak their names would solve this.

I have been on these forums for years now, but I still remember that it took me about 4 months of daily reading before I knew what the posts were even talking about--almost exclusively because of acronyms.
 

Marko Tsourkan

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
4,964
Reaction score
29
Drinky,
I haven't forgotten about the sticks, just didn't get to it yet. I will be straightening some uyamago tamgsvery soon, so out of two I mke, one is for you.

M
PS:I haven't forgotten the outline of the suji either. Just thins are a little slower in my land. :)
 

UglyJoe

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
426
Reaction score
1
The reason I am saying that it isn't a solution is because there is no way to tell people who aren't in the existing in-crowd what the hell "cktg" means. It was the most annoying part of learning about knives(or anything) on forums. People saying "If you want a ffg 240 j-blade in vg-10, get a DP from cktg and send it to jks." You can't Google these things, and by requiring we use some indescribable acronym easily crosses the line from convenient to elitist. A sticky explaining what CKTG, HA, and whatever else makes the prohibition list and why you can't speak their names would solve this.

I have been on these forums for years now, but I still remember that it took me about 4 months of daily reading before I knew what the posts were even talking about--almost exclusively because of acronyms.
I understand this, but at the same time, that's kind of the point. Forcing people to take the time to learn what these things stand for makes them educate themselves to some degree. I think as a community we would rather new posters take the time to learn about knives and make an informed decision than to have someone say "Go buy a Tojiro from www.**************.com, it's cheap and you can learn on it". Someone who just wants to buy a set of knives as a wedding gift are going to buy from the big boys (SLT, WS, CAM, etc.) or they're going to do a minimum of searching and find CKTG easily enough. Heck, I found CKTG before I ever even heard of knife forums of any kind.
 

goodchef1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
249
Reaction score
0
censorship for personal reasons on any forum I believe damages credibility. :( wasn't this type of actions on the other forum the reason this was created? I highly doubt that Mark's passion for money more then the goods he sells is the reason his links are blocked.
 

mr drinky

Founding Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
3,544
Reaction score
13
Drinky,
I haven't forgotten about the sticks, just didn't get to it yet. I will be straightening some uyamago tamgsvery soon, so out of two I mke, one is for you.

M
PS:I haven't forgotten the outline of the suji either. Just thins are a little slower in my land. :)
No problem, man. I don't want my things getting in the way of your new WIP knife porn ;)

k.
 

UglyJoe

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
426
Reaction score
1
Again, it's NOT the "passion for money". It's that some vendors have sold themselves as experts in a field that they clearly aren't experts in. I remember Mark learning to hand sharpen for the first time. Within a matter of a few weeks, he started posting a series on sharpening knives that to the uninformed buyer on his website would make them think he was an expert knife sharpener. Which leads to things like videos of using an edgepro and pushing other sharpening devices, which *most* posters on here would agree is an expensive and certainly less useful thing for new sharpeners to be using. It's one thing to be a retailer, and another to sell yourself as an expert in the field, particularly when you are hurting the business of those who ARE experts in that field. This forum was set up in part to encourage people to turn to those who really know their stuff and will try to meet your needs as best as they can. If every thread that starts with "What knife to buy..." ends up with "Go to CKtG" then that kind of defeats part of the purpose of this forum.
 

JohnnyChance

Founding Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
3,418
Reaction score
14
I have been on these forums for years now, but I still remember that it took me about 4 months of daily reading before I knew what the posts were even talking about--almost exclusively because of acronyms.
Yeah, when I first started it felt like I would never get the hang of it. At Tom's forum I posted a set of links that had a little description of each site, the name of the person behind it (as often people say, just call Koki, email Stefan, etc) and the acronym for the site. I posted part of it in the wood vendor thread, and the majority of the knife makers I had links for actually have subforums here so that wasn't really relevant. I just didn't post the retailers because all the dogs were sleeping at the time :)
 

Eamon Burke

Banned
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
4,855
Reaction score
9
I understand this, but at the same time, that's kind of the point. Forcing people to take the time to learn what these things stand for makes them educate themselves to some degree. I think as a community we would rather new posters take the time to learn about knives and make an informed decision than to have someone say "Go buy a Tojiro from www.**************.com, it's cheap and you can learn on it". Someone who just wants to buy a set of knives as a wedding gift are going to buy from the big boys (SLT, WS, CAM, etc.) or they're going to do a minimum of searching and find CKTG easily enough. Heck, I found CKTG before I ever even heard of knife forums of any kind.
I see where you are coming from, even if I disagree with the sentiment a little. You and Dave have won me over. :thumbsup:


Therefore, I am volunteering myself to start keeping up with a list of acronyms and specialist terminology.

I am massively overextended in my personal and professional life, but my internal wiring will not let me rest on this kind of thing, it is one of my passions.

Dave, if I started making a list/resource like this, would you sponsor it with your occasional help, and sticky it somewhere? I'm very strongly interested in the future success of this site, and I would like the chance to create a welcoming, helpful space for new people who want answers and information about kitchen cutlery.
 

Dave Martell

Forum Founder
Professional Craftsman
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
14,037
Reaction score
858
Location
Airville, PA
Dave, if I started making a list/resource like this, would you sponsor it with your occasional help, and sticky it somewhere? I'm very strongly interested in the future success of this site, and I would like the chance to create a welcoming, helpful space for new people who want answers and information about kitchen cutlery.

Absolutely - yes I'd love to have something like this available. We've already got a Kitchen Knife Knowledge forum all set and waiting. This is one of the areas of the forums that is under developed/used and anything like this that can be added is welcome.

Thanks for the offer! :)
 

Dave Martell

Forum Founder
Professional Craftsman
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
14,037
Reaction score
858
Location
Airville, PA
For the record, the company name "Chef Knives To Go" isn't blocked.
The idea here isn't to censor what's being talked about or where to buy something, just that the direct links to CKTG business sites are no longer allowed. I hope that everyone understands this point, this is very important.
 

JohnnyChance

Founding Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
3,418
Reaction score
14
Dave, if I started making a list/resource like this, would you sponsor it with your occasional help, and sticky it somewhere? I'm very strongly interested in the future success of this site, and I would like the chance to create a welcoming, helpful space for new people who want answers and information about kitchen cutlery.
A disclaimer saying that some non-local (to this forum) vendors cannot be directly linked, in an effort to promote our local, trusted (and paying) vendors. I think that would prevent new people from posting new threads saying "why is my link broken" or "why is my post censored" and the whole issue being dragged into the light again.
 

El Pescador

Engorged Member
Founding Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
2,225
Reaction score
1
Google any of those products you mentioned and a for sale listing pops up on CKTG. Many of the founding members of this site actually support Dave's decision. If people want to buy something and Googling is beyond them then they got other problems.

Pesky
 

Michael Rader

Banned
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
285
Reaction score
0
Hi guys, my name was mentioned earlier and I must say that as a vendor that has sold knives occasionally with ***** for over two years, I do not have a problem with this decision.
-M
 
Top