Changing beliefs about knives

[Barmoley]

Obviously this is opinion, everyone has, and is entitled to, a different one. White 3 is getting down to low enough carbon amounts that edge retention is objectively pretty poor. White 2 is a fair degree better. Both have the exact same weaknesses - reactivity, sub-optimal edge retention - but White 2 holds edges better than White 3. The difference in toughness between the two isn't really applicable in the kitchen knife space unless you are specifically talking about a knife subjected to pretty horrible treatment.

Again, this is all my opinion, based on using various knives over time.

I wonder how much better white 2 retention is and if it is detectable in use. White 3 has enough carbon to get pretty hard. There could be a situation where toughness matters more than marginal increase in wear resistance. For example with tougher steel you could conceivably have more acute geometry where white 2 would chip, but white 3 wouldn't and so in such a case white 3 edge would last longer. I don't know if anyone actually optimizes geometry to steel or if white 3 is taken to the same hardness as white 2, so just a thought experiment.

I remember someone here raving about white 3 knives from some famous maker, I forget who. Also recently it's been said that mizuno white steel honyaki are white 3 and have been for years.

In any case I am not disputing your experiences and I haven't used a white 3 knife. I think white 2 has poor retention too. I wouldn't base my decision on the difference between these two when buying from a good maker who knows how to work them.

 

[user 16756]

I used to think that the knife itself was more important than the sharpening (more a collector view). Now I think the sharpening is probably more important than the knife, assuming you are starting with a decent knife (more a user view).

this has been my conclusion as well, and Im far more willing to spend >500 or even more than 1000 on a really nice stone than I am a knife now.

also as you sharpen a knife it becomes yours, and Ive made subtle adjustments to some of my knives that have turned them from a bit uninspiring to exactly what I want. with some work both my Mazaki 240 and Hinoura 210 have turned into knives that are as good as anything else I own, including my old favorites like Kato and a really killer Ittetsu I got from JKI.

Im still willing to shell out for a nice knife if I think it's special. My number recently came up so now Ive got a Shi.han on the way and I paid a fair bit for a Toyama a while back when you add up the knife and the rehandle I had done. But relatively few knives excite me, and nearly every stone I see at least intrigues me.

 

[big_adventure]

I wonder how much better white 2 retention is and if it is detectable in use. White 3 has enough carbon to get pretty hard. There could be a situation where toughness matters more than marginal increase in wear resistance. For example with tougher steel you could conceivably have more acute geometry where white 2 would chip, but white 3 wouldn't and so in such a case white 3 edge would last longer. I don't know if anyone actually optimizes geometry to steel or if white 3 is taken to the same hardness as white 2, so just a thought experiment.

I remember someone here raving about white 3 knives from some famous maker, I forget who. Also recently it's been said that mizuno white steel honyaki are white 3 and have been for years.

In any case I am not disputing your experiences and I haven't used a white 3 knife. I think white 2 has poor retention too. I wouldn't base my decision on the difference between these two when buying from a good maker who knows how to work them.

I agree with all of that - when you are just talking about the differences between two shirogami steels, the maker, edge geometry and profile all have much more to do with relative performance (including edge retention) then shiro 2 versus shiro 3.

And as stated, my experiences are pretty limited. If Bob Kramer wants to make me a knife in white 3, I'm not going to say "No Bob, that steel sucks, I refuse to accept it."

 

[captaincaed]

Similar for me - I've had personal hands-on with 2 knives in White 3, and 2 in White 2. Only one of them was actually mine, the others were borrowed/short-term-traded. I'm basing this in a large part on the science behind the steels - and I'm neither a forging blacksmith nor a metallurgist, so it's information I've mostly acquired through reading and ****.

From what I understand, when you mix iron and carbon, an important change happens around 0.84% carbon, which is called "eutectoid steel". It's the reason 1084 exists, to hit that mark on the nose.

It has something to do with the types of crystalline structures that form, specifically pearlite. Lower is "hypo eutectoid" and higher is "hyper eutectoid". I don't understand much beyond that, but if you burn out too much carbon, you're missing a chance to get full formation of the harder crystalline structures that many of us like in kitchen knives. However, those tougher structures formed in hypo eutectoid steels are better suited for hard-duty blades where impact forces are important. You tend to see swords in 1045 and 1060, which are about 0.45-0.6% carbon, respectively. Sometimes you'll see 1095, but there's often a word of caution to be careful with it.

Maybe if Larrin isn't sick of our ****, he'll throw a little knowledge bomb in the middle of this. I'd personally love to know a bit more. White 3 steel looks like it should be at least eutectoid, and I'm curious what happens as you approach 1.3% carbon with White 1.

 

[Blank Blades.]

White 3 for me has had the shortest edge retention, but my experience is n=1, so, you know, grain of salt. For D2 I've had half a dozen. The Hiragatake in D2 I regularly sharpen is pretty darn nice though, sharpens much more like A2.

D2 does sharpen nicely. It just gave me a hell of a time hand sanding with aluminum oxide sandpaper though.

 

[DavidPF]

Now I think the sharpening is probably more important than the knife, assuming you are starting with a decent knife (more a user view).

I like this - but it's kind of wide open to "OK, define decent knife". Things you learned while you were on the more collector-ish side of things probably still contribute to your knowledge of what a knife needs to be decent.

Anyway, I still agree with you.

 

[Koop]

I like this - but it's kind of wide open to "OK, define decent knife". Things you learned while you were on the more collector-ish side of things probably still contribute to your knowledge of what a knife needs to be decent.

Anyway, I still agree with you.

 

[DavidPF]

Did I say something weird or offensive? If I did, it was accidental.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

Doesn’t Y Ikeda like white 3 for honyaki? I only have one deba and I’m no expert with it but it’s white 3 which I got because I figured it might benefit from the toughness. Same with my first single bevel, a very thin fuguhiki that I use for lots of things that aren’t fugu

 

[inferno]

From what I understand, when you mix iron and carbon, an important change happens around 0.84% carbon, which is called "eutectoid steel". It's the reason 1084 exists, to hit that mark on the nose.

It has something to do with the types of crystalline structures that form, specifically pearlite. Lower is "hypo eutectoid" and higher is "hyper eutectoid". I don't understand much beyond that, but if you burn out too much carbon, you're missing a chance to get full formation of the harder crystalline structures that many of us like in kitchen knives. However, those tougher structures formed in hypo eutectoid steels are better suited for hard-duty blades where impact forces are important. You tend to see swords in 1045 and 1060, which are about 0.45-0.6% carbon, respectively. Sometimes you'll see 1095, but there's often a word of caution to be careful with it.

Maybe if Larrin isn't sick of our ****, he'll throw a little knowledge bomb in the middle of this. I'd personally love to know a bit more. White 3 steel looks like it should be at least eutectoid, and I'm curious what happens as you approach 1.3% carbon with White 1.

basically you oversature the grains with carbon when the c% hits a certain %. and this point will be different for all steels depending on what else they put in there.

also at a certain % i think the type of martensite changes. lathe and plate. and the type formed with lower carbon % is tougher.

in the end i wonder if any of this matter at all since most users are completely satisfied with white 2 at 62-63 hrc.
i prefer alloyed steel myself there is a good reason they put all those extras in there.

 

[Doffen]

The changes have been a never ending story. Started with Vic, and still not finish trying knives. But sharpening have been more important than the knife itselves.
I have enough sharp knives for the rest of my life. Not very expensive, but several of them are good knives. In different steel. The prises that’s ‘normal’ now, is more than I ever think I would pay earlier..

I use more time sharpening and polishing them, and the interest of stones, was a change, now I have more stones than I have knifes...

I

 

[Doffen]

in the end i wonder if any of this matter at all since most users are completely satisfied with white 2 at 62-63 hrc.
i prefer alloyed steel myself there is a good reason they put all those extras in there.

I have 5-6 knives in white 2, and one honyaki in white 3. I really like them. So easy on the stones, and the naturals give them a wonderful edge.
In the other end, I have ZDP. A pain in the .. to sharpen.

I wonder where I will end up in steel and stones?

 

[big_adventure]

From what I understand, when you mix iron and carbon, an important change happens around 0.84% carbon, which is called "eutectoid steel". It's the reason 1084 exists, to hit that mark on the nose.

It has something to do with the types of crystalline structures that form, specifically pearlite. Lower is "hypo eutectoid" and higher is "hyper eutectoid". I don't understand much beyond that, but if you burn out too much carbon, you're missing a chance to get full formation of the harder crystalline structures that many of us like in kitchen knives. However, those tougher structures formed in hypo eutectoid steels are better suited for hard-duty blades where impact forces are important. You tend to see swords in 1045 and 1060, which are about 0.45-0.6% carbon, respectively. Sometimes you'll see 1095, but there's often a word of caution to be careful with it.

Maybe if Larrin isn't sick of our ****, he'll throw a little knowledge bomb in the middle of this. I'd personally love to know a bit more. White 3 steel looks like it should be at least eutectoid, and I'm curious what happens as you approach 1.3% carbon with White 1.

I fortunately have @Larrin 's book right here.

To summarize, eutectoid carbon content is 0.75%. A steel with euctectoid carbon content transforms from ferrite and cementite into all pure austentite at 732C, where 100% of the carbon in the steel will be in solution. It never has any phases where there is a mix of austentite and either ferrite or cementite.

If the steel has lower carbon content than 0.75%, at the first transformation point, just below that same 732C, it will transform into a mixture of austentite and ferrite. If it has a higher carbon content than 0.75%, at the first transformation point, just slightly above 732C, it will transform into a mixture of austentite and cementite. However, in either case, no matter how much or how little carbon there is in the steel, if you heat it hot enough, you eventually hit a point where it transforms into austentite with all of the carbon in solution. At 1.4% carbon, for example, this happens somewhere around 950C. At 0.2% carbon, it would happen at around 830C. Steels with more carbon than the euctectoid point (0.75) enable us to cause carbides to form by NOT dissolving 100% of the carbon into austentite during treatment. In the example of the steel with 1.4% carbon, if you heat it and leave it below the point where all of the carbon dissolves into austentite (leaving no cementite), that carbon will form carbides in the final steel. Cementite is a carbide, albeit a relatively soft one. The other elements added to the steel are generally there to form other, harder carbides at this point.

I hope that's clear. Short version, when you want a steel with high wear resistance, it will generally be hypereutectoid to enable good carbide formation. There is no intrinsic advantage in a steel being eutectoid, because you can get all of the carbon to dissolve in higher or lower carbon steels by using more heat during treatment.

All of this comes from Knife Engineering, part 3, chapter 11, starting around page 109.

 

[Larrin]

Yes some people are confused that eutectoid is some kind of magic optimal steel in some way but it doesn’t really mean that.

The best amount of carbon in solution is around 0.4-0.6%. Higher gives only small increases in hardness but is increasingly brittle. 52100 has such good toughness because the Cr additions make it easier to keep carbon in that range. 1095, white steels, blue steels, etc. are usually much more brittle for a given hardness.

 

[big_adventure]

Yes some people are confused that eutectoid is some kind of magic optimal steel in some way but it doesn’t really mean that.

The best amount of carbon in solution is around 0.4-0.6%. Higher gives only small increases in hardness but is increasingly brittle. 52100 has such good toughness because the Cr additions make it easier to keep carbon in that range. 1095, white steels, blue steels, etc. are usually much more brittle for a given hardness.

This man has forgotten more about steel than I know - I'd listen to him (well, as shown by the book I cited, I do listen to him).

Also, in edit mode: I would imagine it is confusing because in most language use, you want to be at the place that isn't hypo- or hyper-, you want to avoid the extremes. You don't want to be hypo- or hyper-glycemic. So people start hearing about eutectoid and imagine that, if there is a complicated, greek-based word with hypo- and hyper- modifiers applied, one should strive to avoid those. Just a guess...

 

[DavidPF]

I would imagine it is confusing because in most language use, you want to be at the place that isn't hypo- or hyper-, you want to avoid the extremes. You don't want to be hypo- or hyper-glycemic. So people start hearing about eutectoid and imagine that, if there is a complicated, greek-based word with hypo- and hyper- modifiers applied, one should strive to avoid those.

... and in a lot of what we hear, if there's a "eu...", then there's a "dys..." to oppose it.

The difference here is that eutectoid (and its hypo- and hyper-) are neither good nor bad; the eutectoid point is just a kind of pivot point on the scale of how much carbon is in steel.

 

[inferno]

i found this vid on youtube. its a pretty basic vid about metals, but quite good. this is basically what is explained in the first 20 pages in all books about steel more or less.

 

[inferno]

Yes some people are confused that eutectoid is some kind of magic optimal steel in some way but it doesn’t really mean that.

The best amount of carbon in solution is around 0.4-0.6%. Higher gives only small increases in hardness but is increasingly brittle. 52100 has such good toughness because the Cr additions make it easier to keep carbon in that range. 1095, white steels, blue steels, etc. are usually much more brittle for a given hardness.

i have a question for you larrin. do you know how hard you can harden 4130/4140/4340?? as quenched.

 

[Blank Blades.]

I use more time sharpening and polishing them, and the interest of stones, was a change, now I have more stones than I have knifes...

Me too. Me too

 

[inferno]

I have 5-6 knives in white 2, and one honyaki in white 3. I really like them. So easy on the stones, and the naturals give them a wonderful edge.
In the other end, I have ZDP. A pain in the .. to sharpen.

I wonder where I will end up in steel and stones?

who knows. i kinda ended up on blue2 as my preferred carbon out of japan. it just takes the best edge.
for my own stuff its 15n20 and 80crv2. because i can do these with a weed burner and a few firebricks outside my house then into my oven.
and its just as good as the best carbons from japan. i notice very little difference between most low alloyed carbons. they have the absolute lowest edge retention even when hard. thats it pretty much. easy to sharpen though. always cool to do your own stuff though.

i kinda went from krupp 1.4116 @ 52hrc, to mac at aus8 @ 60hrc, then to blue2 @ 62 hrc. then to powder ss. then to my own carbons. the more i use knives the less i feel the actual steel matters. since i have the stones i can easily sharpen my knives every single day if i wanted.

right now i have about 20 knives and 40 stones now i'm selling stones.

 

[Blank Blades.]

now i'm selling stones.

Good to know. You aren't in the states are you?

 

[inferno]

no. and i'm only selling some of my high grits for now. 10-12k. i have found the good ones i want to keep.
i dont sell stones comercially as a store. fyi.

 

[Larrin]

i have a question for you larrin. do you know how hard you can harden 4130/4140/4340?? as quenched.

4130 about 55 Rc, 4140/4340 about 60 Rc.

 

[chefwp]

This 8" Wüstof Le Cordon Bleu, which I acquired about 15 yrs ago and which felt like an extension of my right hand through so many years, included my stint in professional kitchens will always be the epitome of knives for me, despite my dalliances with a 240 Misono which often came out to slice roasts, a 8" Global G2 which became my 'travel knife,' and that weird Ergochef Crimson that for some reason I always reached for when I needed to plow through a big head of green cabbage to make cole slaw (I think because it was heavy and had great height made it feel right for this).

Well that silly notion ended a little more than a year ago and I no longer have any of the aforementioned except the Wüstof, which I still have some love for and sometimes makes an appearance to rock chop some garlic for old times sake.

 

[dafox]

This 8" Wüstof Le Cordon Bleu, which I acquired about 15 yrs ago and which felt like an extension of my right hand through so many years, included my stint in professional kitchens will always be the epitome of knives for me, despite my dalliances with a 240 Misono which often came out to slice roasts, a 8" Global G2 which became my 'travel knife,' and that weird Ergochef Crimson that for some reason I always reached for when I needed to plow through a big head of green cabbage to make cole slaw (I think because it was heavy and had great height made it feel right for this).

Well that silly notion ended a little more than a year ago and I no longer have any of the aforementioned except the Wüstof, which I still have some love for and sometimes makes an appearance to rock chop some garlic for old times sake.

What have become your favorite knives now? What knife do you use now for the things that you would have used the Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu for?

 

[chefwp]

What have become your favorite knives now? What knife do you use now for the things that you would have used the Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu for?

Haha, seems like it took a few knives to replace that one, but maybe not out of necessity, but just because I don't really have one favorite. I am using a Yoshi 240 a lot recently, it is newish and the surprising thing is that I used to think the size, 240, just wasn't good for me based on my experience with my old Misono. Well it has been a bit of an epiphany that the size was not the issue, as I really enjoy and am very productive with the Yoshi. But even with that I still reach for the Masakage 210 a lot, and also a Hitohira bunka & a Shinko Seilan nakiri. Those are definitely my frequent fliers.

 

[Delat]

Haha, seems like it took a few knives to replace that one, but maybe not out of necessity, but just because I don't really have one favorite. I am using a Yoshi 240 a lot recently, it is newish and the surprising thing is that I used to think the size, 240, just wasn't good for me based on my experience with my old Misono. Well it has been a bit of an epiphany that the size was not the issue, as I really enjoy and am very productive with the Yoshi. But even with that I still reach for the Masakage 210 a lot, and also a Hitohira bunka & a Shinko Seilan nakiri. Those are definitely my frequent fliers.
View attachment 120467

How do you like the Shinko Seilan? I’ve been thinking about picking up the gyuto as an intro to my first carbon knife, but keep debating if I should get something that’s stainless-clad.

 

[BillHanna]

How do you like the Shinko Seilan? I’ve been thinking about picking up the gyuto as an intro to my first carbon knife, but keep debating if I should get something that’s stainless-clad.

DOOOOOO IIIIIIIIIIIT. If you don’t like it, it’ll sell.

 

[chefwp]

How do you like the Shinko Seilan? I’ve been thinking about picking up the gyuto as an intro to my first carbon knife, but keep debating if I should get something that’s stainless-clad.

Even though I am not a huge fan of K-finish on knives, I LOVE THIS KNIFE! I also think it is a real bargain, price-wise. However, if you have money to burn and patience with OOS from retailers the way 210 and 240 gyutos seem like demand is outstripping supply, you could probably definitely find a more desirable knife, but the Shinko would be a great starter/intro. Good luck!

 

[chefwp]

How do you like the Shinko Seilan? I’ve been thinking about picking up the gyuto as an intro to my first carbon knife, but keep debating if I should get something that’s stainless-clad.

I should also mention, if you are looking broadly to pick up an intro into carbon gyutos, I have really enjoyed the Masakage Shimo 210, it is W2, it is Damascus, but not obnoxiously so, actually very subtle and nice, also at a nice price. I wasn't too keen on the magnolia handle, but burnt mine and actually quite like it now. A strop with compound keeps the W2 super sharp.
When I got this one, my 10 yr old daughter said about the Damascus pattern, "it looks like a river with trees and people at the side..." So that is all I see now too.