Cheap Knife - 1st "customer"

[ModRQC]

I went to visit an old friend on Monday. Didn't see him for almost a year with Covid and stuff happening. Back then I didn't sharpen, I barely just got started with this knife passion.

Funnily enough, apart of anticipating having a good time with him, I also went there thinking, "He surely has a decent enough knife somewhere that needs attention..." You know how we probably all start to grope around each friend and relative we go to visit and have a look at what they use for knives... I also do this with appliances, computers, books and movies, and what not...

This is what I left with... is barely decent, and was relatively gravely injured... Perfect!

I thought this could stand very well for a bit of practice for when I'll propose some sharpening services around just to have some more knives to work on. A good test of "Am I really able to make things better when it's not my knives, not relatively good ones, and not ones that were looked after like I look after my things?

Luuuuuuuv the comparison shot with the stainless sink state... this is an apartment where I live, and this sink is old and worn...

Way the light reflects is telling...

When you know it's there you can see the edge waves...

Trying to get a good picture of a dent in a knife is painful with this lighting I have... Reminds me of when we try and get good pictures of such small defects on an OOTB appliance at work under neon lighting. The companies will really play the dumb game and say "There don't seem to be anything there at all, can you take a better picture?" Nope!

...

Ok I stopped trying there.

So this knife is your regular "dishwasher/loose in drawer" piece of crap stamped knife from an undetermined era (Paderno don't seem to do those anymore - but they're a rehash we often see since Global introduced their crap SS handle "J" knives back in the day). It could be six months ago (dishwasher and drawer, eh?), it could be ten years ago. Rust spots, harsh soap spots, deep heavy scratches and whatnot...

Scary, huh?

My friend tried to cut chicken bones with it. He's no moron by the way, he sort of knew it wouldn't work well, but couldn't care less because that's a crap knife. Well, a bit moron, because you don't try that with the belly-to-tip area when you know what you're doing. Would probably have gone better if he'd used the heel area. It's pretty much the only "decent" knife he has though, so he was quite glad when I proposed to have a look at it. I was saving him a trip to Canadian Tire buying the next crap knife.

I thought I was going for the big overhaul, at first. So I prepared consequently... even had on my mind to grind away a bit of the finger guard.

Ah yes, dull as a stainless ruler would feel or about - but not exaggeratedly thick, it sorts of hurt pressing that hard on the edge, good sign.

 

[ModRQC]

I used the Atoma 140 for profile repair – just trailing strokes, 10 each side in repeat, until I could see a faint edge bevel aiming to apex on both sides of the dent – which was all but visibly gone. Burr was formed all along the edge at each stroke on one side. Took one hour.

I didn’t go into a thinning job, finally. I did some thinning just making sure that the edge bevel was really smooth, that I couldn’t feel any deformation or wobbling on the stone. That was on SP320.

My thought is, if he’s gonna go and crush more bones, I’d rather leave it thick as is for now. I’ll wait for when he’ll have used it a while, and offer him a choice: perfect this one to the best of my abilities, or counseling him into buying a more proper knife.

Raising a full-blown burr was real easy on SP320 after the Atoma treatment. I suspect this stainless here is a tad harder than Victorinox, too. Feels so at least. Paderno seem to use X45 stainless right now on their stamped or forged, I surmised this could be it too. Not that it explains why I thought it felt harder, it’s pretty much potato-potato all those cheap German SS variations, and probably not cryo’d in this case… it’s just the info I could gather, and the feeling I have.

Degreased and finished deburring on NP800. Called it a day. Nice and clean sound in newspaper from there too – this surprised me from such crude steel. All in all it was far to be the PITA I expected. Used a rust eraser to remove all corrosion marks on the knife.

Used Mother polish on the handle mostly, a bit on the blade, fully buffed, deep washed and dried.

Triple fold of newspaper A1. Cutting onions and garlic – well it’s sharp but a bit thick. If he decides to use it well, and not to put it in the dishwasher, I’ll do the full overhaul next time around.

Sorry for the long, two posts thread on sharpening a cheap knife for a friend, but I was quite happy with the results. It felt so easy, and I felt so confident, it was a very good morning even if I started with a bit of a hangover…

Be well folks!

 

[daveb]

Kewl!

Now about that sink....

 

[ModRQC]

Well, I went to his home to drop the knife. His parents were visiting. I’ll get new knives to sharpen soon, they seemed highly interested when they tried his knife. Even offered to come drop them at my home if I prefered.

Meanwhile my friend’s mother pulled this out of a drawer... a gift she made to him a while ago, and needing some care.

it’s starting much more quickly then I expected.

 

[ModRQC]

Yeah he should have used THAT on bone. My guess is that he had completely forgotten its existence. But a mother never forgets...

 

[Robert Lavacca]

Man too bad he didn’t live in the CT area. I would say just throw that thing out and go to the wusthof outlet for a good deal.

 

[Benuser]

Well, I went to his home to drop the knife. His parents were visiting. I’ll get new knives to sharpen soon, they seemed highly interested when they tried his knife. Even offered to come drop them at my home if I prefered.

Meanwhile my friend’s mother pulled this out of a drawer... a gift she made to him a while ago, and needing some care.

it’s starting much more quickly then I expected.

Traditional European cleavers have a very rounded edge to avoid splinters. Or is it some kind of a hybrid one?

 

[ModRQC]

Oh no you're spot on as usual. Very rounded. I must admit I don't have the faintest idea how to proceed with this one. Need to think on it and look at it closer. Don't spoil the goods yet, I'll come to you when I'll need confirmation and advice. Which is not a probability but a matter of little time.

Right now however I have another project going too that I want to commit to first.

 

[Kawa]

Nice job!

95% of the knives I practise with are crap ss kitchendrawer knives aswell. Let's be honest, 95% of all people only have this kind of knives. "Why would you pay 100,- +euro if a 4,99 euro knives is sharp aswell"? Many around here are professional cook, love cooking at home or are somehow busy with knives in their life, so it's obvious that it seems like we all have expensive knives... Truth is, when you start asking friends, familie, colleagues etc prepare to get this kind of knives... On a very good day you get a beat up Sabatier of Wusthoff that is ashamed it still weares that name...


I don't find it particularly hard to sharpen these knives. Most of them take an edge like any steel does. You know, 'very sharp' in the eyes of the ones your sharpen for. Most of the time the 'cheap knife' shows itself because the edge is very inconsistent: heigth goes from 1mm to several mm, left and right side different angle...high low spots... cant sharpen the last 3 cm from the heel etc...

Personally, I don't thin these knives. It's fat compared to your laser Jknive, but scary sharp for the owner. The face of those SS knives is very inconsistent aswell, so when you start to thin, there is no way back (or you scratch 50% of the knives appearance), but due to the big contact patch it is a very slow process..
Unless your goal is to practise thinning....

 

[tostadas]

Did you give them some bandaids to go with the newly sharpened knife?

 

[Benuser]

Nice job!

95% of the knives I practise with are crap ss kitchendrawer knives aswell. Let's be honest, 95% of all people only have this kind of knives. "Why would you pay 100,- +euro if a 4,99 euro knives is sharp aswell"? Many around here are professional cook, love cooking at home or are somehow busy with knives in their life, so it's obvious that it seems like we all have expensive knives... Truth is, when you start asking friends, familie, colleagues etc prepare to get this kind of knives... On a very good day you get a beat up Sabatier of Wusthoff that is ashamed it still weares that name...


I don't find it particularly hard to sharpen these knives. Most of them take an edge like any steel does. You know, 'very sharp' in the eyes of the ones your sharpen for. Most of the time the 'cheap knife' shows itself because the edge is very inconsistent: heigth goes from 1mm to several mm, left and right side different angle...high low spots... cant sharpen the last 3 cm from the heel etc...

Personally, I don't thin these knives. It's fat compared to your laser Jknive, but scary sharp for the owner. The face of those SS knives is very inconsistent aswell, so when you start to thin, there is no way back (or you scratch 50% of the knives appearance), but due to the big contact patch it is a very slow process..
Unless your goal is to practise thinning....

I wouldn't suggest big thinning operations with someone else's neglected fat soft stainless, but always start by making a relief bevel at the lowest angle I can without scratching the face. Other than with a properly maintained blade, I go on until the old edge has gone — to be sure the new edge is made of fresh steel. Especially steeling abuse or use of powered equipment by previous sharpeners can affect the steel rather deeply.
The relief bevel has with little means a huge impact on performance, and allows a conservative final edge, edge retention will benefit from.

 

[dafox]

I wouldn't suggest big thinning operations with someone else's neglected fat soft stainless, but always start by making a relief bevel at the lowest angle I can without scratching the face. Other than with a properly maintained blade, I go on until the old edge has gone — to be sure the new edge is made of fresh steel. Especially steeling abuse or use of powered equipment by previous sharpeners can affect the steel rather deeply.
The relief bevel has with little means a huge impact on performance, and allows a conservative final edge, edge retention will benefit from.

What is a relief bevel?

 

[Benuser]

What is a relief bevel?

The secundary bevel. At least here. Elsewhere it might be called the primary one.

 

[Kawa]

I wouldn't suggest big thinning operations with someone else's neglected fat soft stainless, but always start by making a relief bevel at the lowest angle I can without scratching the face. Other than with a properly maintained blade, I go on until the old edge has gone — to be sure the new edge is made of fresh steel. Especially steeling abuse or use of powered equipment by previous sharpeners can affect the steel rather deeply.
The relief bevel has with little means a huge impact on performance, and allows a conservative final edge, edge retention will benefit from.

Thx for the tip. Never thought of it that way

 

[inferno]

I have done a fair share of crap SS.

some good tools to have:
a hammer to hammer the dings out.
a quite coarse single cut file to fix the profile or "thinning".
a 200 or so stone to start with.
red (coarse) gray (fine) scotchbrite to make the sides look good.
maybe some sandpaper for the sides/spine.
an assortment of sandpapers for random stuff.

as for sharpening them i like the shapton pro1k and 2k. they are perfect for this.

 

[dafox]

I have done a fair share of crap SS.

some good tools to have:
a hammer to hammer the dings out.
a quite coarse single cut file to fix the profile or "thinning".
a 200 or so stone to start with.
red (coarse) gray (fine) scotchbrite to make the sides look good.
maybe some sandpaper for the sides/spine.
an assortment of sandpapers for random stuff.

as for sharpening them i like the shapton pro1k and 2k. they are perfect for this.

How does the green scotchbrite fit into this?

 

[Kawa]

For me, a green scotschbrite is more for scuffing up metal. Removing dirt, rust etc.
It does scratch with enough pressure, but not nearly enough to sharpen, or grind metal away with.


It's best used for making your knive look ugly

 

[ModRQC]

Did you give them some bandaids to go with the newly sharpened knife?

LOTS of warning and this...

 

[Kawa]

Cleancut.eu sends you 2 bandaids with an order

Really liked that joke

 

[tostadas]

Cleancut.eu sends you 2 bandaids with an order

Really liked that joke

It's funny but not even a joke. Literally all of my family members tell me that they cut themselves on the knives I sharpened for them. Mainly because they're used to all the knives being completely dull.

A side note, I generally do fairly conservative angles (probably around 20deg) and no higher than 1000 grit for the people I know that aren't super careful about their knives.

 

[Kawa]

It's funny but not even a joke. Literally all of my family members tell me that they cut themselves on the knives I sharpened for them. Mainly because they're used to all the knives being completely dull.

A side note, I generally do fairly conservative angles (probably around 20deg) and no higher than 1000 grit for the people I know that aren't super careful about their knives.

I recognize that. I have a friend who uses a scissor the cut his raw chicken filet into pieces. Why? Because he finds it quicker and more easy then using a knife. 'But thats because your knife is completely dull'
'no no, my knife is sharp enough'...


Most of the people I sharpen for are afraid and ask me 'not to make it really scary sharp'.
I just tell them I won't. But the truth is I try as hard as I can to get it as sharp as possible. I know I am not the best sharpener around yet I do it for my pleasure and practise, not because I'm on earth to provide sharp knives to people for free


I always try to convince them a sharp knife is saver then a dull knife, because you need way less pressure to cut your food, so there is less chance to slip and cut yourself.

 

[Kawa]

Is it the same knife???
The print says no, but...

 

[ModRQC]

These are usually 3rd party knives that sold on the cheap in some hardware store or whatnot. Neither Paderno or Vivo is the maker, or perhaps Vivo is. Hell, they sell all stainless handles knives with Air Miles at IGA (grocery around here). The original idea they try to develop upon is Global knives because of wide marketing.

 

[Kawa]

ViVo is Villery & Bosch, no idea if this is a brand that is also know outside of Holland. Mostly they are a brand that makes all kind of 'luxery quality' stuff for your house: shower stuff, kitchen stuff, toilet stuff. They are not focused on knives. (if you want to get an impression: Messen, Vivo - Villeroy & Boch Group)
It was a knifeset you could save coins for and buy them with discount, but not cheap.

Why I'm asking:
I can't find any info on this knives and wouls like to know the steel being used.
Why?
To be honest, this knive feels one class better then the really cheap 'lots of knives for the money' scrap SS.
The edge is consistent if you compare to the really cheap crap. Consistent if you compare left to right, consistent if you compare heel to tip (most cheap knives have and cutting edge, starting 1mm heigh, ending up 3 mm as an example.
The angles are somewhat low ootb if I compare to really bad knives, and, they are able to hold that acute edge for some time (these are the knives my wife uses and though she handles them carefully, it's not the same carefull as I handle my knives, but thats fine by me) .
And the knives sharpen pretty nice. The steels just feels nice and gets a good edge fast.

I've seen a lot of this specific knive, since a lot of people got them back then, friends, family etc.
My family all saved seperately for me, so personally I have 3 chefs knives and 2 santokus myself . They are all comparable to eachother...
If i compare the same really cheap crap in a store, you alsways notice every specific knife of that product has their own flaws on the edge... all completely different grinds.

So I was hoping you could share your opinion about this knife, but I'm not sure if all these 'the same looking knives' are actually the same steel and 'quality' ..

 

[Kippington]

View attachment 95809


Is it the same knife???
The print says no, but...

O...
E...
M...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_equipment_manufacturer

 

[Kawa]

yeah I kinda guessed that Kippington when I saw the looks this morning.

Im hoping the knife of modrqc had a little more info on it then this ViVo thingy

It's was the first time back then I thought I felt 'a quality difference while shaprening' between this thing and all the 5,95 kinda knives. (I think these are sold for about 40-50 euro.)

 

[ModRQC]

Probably a lower and non cryoed version of some Krupp SS. They usually sell these pretty high priced for what they are because they can write German stainless steel on it.

 

[ModRQC]

yeah I kinda guessed that Kippington when I saw the looks this morning.

Im hoping the knife of modrqc had a little more info on it then this ViVo thingy

It's was the first time back then I thought I felt 'a quality difference while shaprening' between this thing and all the 5,95 kinda knives. (I think these are sold for about 40-50 euro.)

No I didn’t get more info they don’t exist anymore. Paderno use X45 SS on their stamped and forged - I suspect this is even more lower end. But yeah I thought and write the same as you - quite hard and easy to sharpen.

 

[Benuser]

Villeroy & Boch is well-known for its potlery. It doesn't produce its own knives.

 

[ModRQC]

It’s a bit of the same with the Paderno, they’re into cookware primarily, having branded knives just fits in. I guess they could be their own makers for their official line-up but I somehow suspect not.