Chisel woodwork question.

[Skylar303]

Hey guys, not sure if this is the correct place to ask so if not feel free to delete.

Anyways I've been trying to make some boxes/bases for some stones. I'm using wood I have around so granted probably not the best, but not completely junk.

I have some cedar and pine that I'm having problems with. When doing the ends of the base I'm getting tearout? (Sorry my woodworking knowledge is pretty new.) Picture below.

So the sides are really clean and good, (compared to the ends...) But the red circle is what I think is tearout? The blue is the edges.

Any input would be appreciated. I'm pretty sure my chisels are sharp. I don't have problems with wood like Poplar, and other hardwoods like oak.

 

[MarcelNL]

It looks as if you did not cut downwards prior to cutting lenghtwise?
Depending on the type of wood there is only so deep you can cut downwards but not doing downwards cuts will almost always end up with what you show.

 

[Dan-]

Read and watch:
https://paulsellers.com/2013/03/making-the-paul-sellers-sharpening-plate-holder/

 

[Skylar303]

Hey thanks for the input.

I go around the edge at the beginning before taking out the bulk and continuing to go around the edge as I remove material. Which works on the sides (blue line) but just tears the end. I'm only going a few mm at a time.

Are you referring to the blue line edge? Those I cut downward but since it runs with the grain it chiseled rather clear.

I tried doing the outline straight down and then also angled a bit to sort of work across the end grain (red circle) which helped the tearout a bit but still happens, just not as bad.

 

[Skylar303]

Read and watch:
https://paulsellers.com/2013/03/making-the-paul-sellers-sharpening-plate-holder/

Hey thanks, I'm trying to make boxes and bases out of 1 peice of wood. Since they are mostly for my natural stones that sometimes aren't standard sizes. I'll keep this in mind for other sets if I get some sythns eventually.

 

[MarcelNL]

 

[deltaplex]

That's certainly tear out (or breakout). Either your chisels are not as sharp as you think, or you're hitting them too hard. you can mitigate this slightly by changing the angle of the chisel, but I think if you just lighten up on your blows you'll likely see improvement.

 

[Dan-]

Well if you watch the video, you see he traces the outline of the stones with his marking knife into the base, so it does not matter one iota if the stones are rectangular or natural. What's around the base is immaterial as the basic method is the same. The fact that Sellers prefers diamond "stones" is immaterial. The fact that he's using plywood also does not matter.

 

[MarcelNL]

That's certainly tear out (or breakout). Either your chisels are not as sharp as you think, or you're hitting them too hard. you can mitigate this slightly by changing the angle of the chisel, but I think if you just lighten up on your blows you'll likely see improvement.

That is what I'm thinking too...

Using an exacto knife to trace the edges PAH... (My grandpa was a carpenter, so old school rules applied to me)

 

[Skylar303]

That's certainly tear out (or breakout). Either your chisels are not as sharp as you think, or you're hitting them too hard. you can mitigate this slightly by changing the angle of the chisel, but I think if you just lighten up on your blows you'll likely see improvement.

That maybe my problem... I joined I have trouble controlling my strength with hits. My Poplar one I was trying I didn't have the tearout and was clean edged, but one too hard of blow split the whole thing... So I'll try baby taps and see if that helps.

Also

Well if you watch the video, you see he traces the outline of the stones with his marking knife into the base, so it does not matter one iota if the stones are rectangular or natural. What's around the base is immaterial as the basic method is the same. The fact that Sellers prefers diamond "stones" is immaterial. The fact that he's using plywood also does not matter.

Yeah I didn't have time to watch the video was in public and no headphones. It just seemed from the reading it wasn't exactly what I was looking for but I'll definitely check it out. Thanks

 

[Skylar303]

Thanks I saw that exact video a while back, it doesn't really address my exact problem. But thank you.

 

[Skylar303]

Read and watch:
https://paulsellers.com/2013/03/making-the-paul-sellers-sharpening-plate-holder/

Interesting video thanks, I'll try that edge method he uses see if that helps as well. Also a good one for some cheaper synthetics that don't need 'special' holders.

I wonder how those manual routers work on regular wood and going as deep as up to 1.5" sometimes?

 

[Dan-]

I have a Veritas one, and they work well. It’s not at all the same as a 1/2” router bit, but you also don’t risk ruining everything or maiming yourself with one bad move.

In the case of an inch and a half deep recess I’d probably use both tbh.

 

[Bear]

If your chisels are sharp you should be able to take shavings off of the end grain, especially softwoods like cedar or pine.



See how he makes a series of shallow end grain cuts then cuts parallel to the grain at the bottom of the shallow cut, do this till you get down to were you want to be, if the grain want's to break out just try going shallow.

 

[TB_London]

Leave yourself 3-4mm on the waste side when you cut the recess. Then go sharpen your chisel again and take paring cuts to clean up back to the line.
Your chisels are crushing the fibres, not really an issue in a typical mortice, but paring back to marks is the typical approach in finer work.

Once sharpened, check the edge by paring something like pine that has big variations in hardness between winter and summer growth.

It can help to nudge the bevel more towards 20-25 degrees than the typical 25 with a 30 microbevel.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Hey guys, not sure if this is the correct place to ask so if not feel free to delete.

Anyways I've been trying to make some boxes/bases for some stones. I'm using wood I have around so granted probably not the best, but not completely junk.

I have some cedar and pine that I'm having problems with. When doing the ends of the base I'm getting tearout? (Sorry my woodworking knowledge is pretty new.) Picture below.
View attachment 170074
So the sides are really clean and good, (compared to the ends...) But the red circle is what I think is tearout? The blue is the edges.

Any input would be appreciated. I'm pretty sure my chisels are sharp. I don't have problems with wood like Poplar, and other hardwoods like oak.

Looks like you've got a bunch of issues going on there;,,,,

#1. Have you thought about drainage???? Softwoods like pine, will drink water like crazy, swelling the wood fibers. As it dries, you may also start seeing cracks, and possibly mould/mildew and wood-rot.

2.Your chisel is not sharp enough. You should be able to pare the end-grain with an effortless down-stroke,,, no mallet ,,, just a push-stroke.

3. You're not using the chisel correctly. Watch Paul Seller's video on using hand chisels. Basically, you do your layout line with a marking knife, severing the top of the wood-fibers, then, with your chisel placed "inside" the line by no more than 1/8"or so,,,bevel-down,,, handle tilted slightly away from the line, do a light tap on the handle. You're basically under-cutting toward the line at that point,,,trying to establish a "knife-wall". You don't want to cut deep,,, a 1/16th" to 1/8" deep cut is more than enough. Don't try cutting to full depth at that point,,,,, because establishing the knife-wall is only the first step.

Regarding "manual routers",,, this will not be appropriate for trimming your end-grain. Manual routers are for trimming the bottoms of grooves and dado's. The sole of the router-plane has to be large enough to register against the sides of the groove or dado that you're cutting.

 

[Skylar303]

Looks like you've got a bunch of issues going on there;,,,,

#1. Have you thought about drainage???? Softwoods like pine, will drink water like crazy, swelling the wood fibers. As it dries, you may also start seeing cracks, and possibly mould/mildew and wood-rot.

2.Your chisel is not sharp enough. You should be able to pare the end-grain with an effortless down-stroke,,, no mallet ,,, just a push-stroke.

3. You're not using the chisel correctly. Watch Paul Seller's video on using hand chisels. Basically, you do your layout line with a marking knife, severing the top of the wood-fibers, then, with your chisel placed "inside" the line by no more than 1/8"or so,,,bevel-down,,, handle tilted slightly away from the line, do a light tap on the handle. You're basically under-cutting toward the line at that point,,,trying to establish a "knife-wall". You don't want to cut deep,,, a 1/16th" to 1/8" deep cut is more than enough. Don't try cutting to full depth at that point,,,,, because establishing the knife-wall is only the first step.

Regarding "manual routers",,, this will not be appropriate for trimming your end-grain. Manual routers are for trimming the bottoms of grooves and dado's.

Hey there, good points.

#1 The pine and soft woods would be boxes for stones not holders (not being directly exposed to water, maybe slight moisture if you put wet stones in. No pun intended... And I was planning on using a lacquer or sorts for those like tung oil I heard was good, or tungwax? I think someone mentioned or something along those lines. Obviously forgetting the name.

#2 Sorry my woodworking gnomenclature needs some brushing up on. Are you referring to the test where they hold a peice up on end and hand power across the top? What I had on hand for an example. (I did not test on balsa wood...) Also imagine the rules the chisel...

I was able to pass that test with my chisels.

Is it harder to do on hard or softwood? Because I'll try to use that type for my tests.

#3 So I did it unorthodox method. I indeed use a marking knife but put the line 3/8th in, hence the under cut. I was trying to see if not hitting the grain directly down but at sort of an angle would help the tearout. (Most of this is a 1st go round experiment btw....) So I'm aware of taking little material from the bulk and redoing the marking lines. Btw, the red outline is my "final" edge(?) for the inside.

The manual router was more for the shallow "holders" not boxes. Hah, that video was shared earlier and what brought me to the hand router questions.

I appreciate your input. I don't doubt I'm doing things wrong it's just like I mentioned I didn't have a problem with hard-soft wood (polar) had clean edges all around until the too hard of strike.

This is one I'm working on out of some sort of hardwood. I think it was like a plaque or something, glued peices. I dunno.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Hey there, good points.

#3 So I did it unorthodox method. I indeed use a marking knife but put the line 3/8th in, hence the under cut. I was trying to see if not hitting the grain directly down but at sort of an angle would help the tearout. (Most of this is a 1st go round experiment btw....) So I'm aware of taking little material from the bulk and redoing the marking lines. Btw, the red outline is my "final" edge(?) for the inside.

Skylar303, I might be wrong here, but, I suspect you may have been using your chisel with the flat-side facing the waste side of the wood, and the bevel facing the "good" side. (I'm struggling trying to put this into words)

Imagine that you're cutting straight down into a piece of wood with the chisel held completely vertical , and the tip of the chisel is buried to the point where the entire bevel is buried. What you'll see is, the bevel will have more surface-area contacting the wood, compared to the flat side of the chisel. When you strike that chisel again, the chisel's flat side will want to "slide" away from the bevel side,,, compressing the wood fibers. The bevel side will tend to "push away" from the good side of the wood, possibly causing yout tear-out issue. Other factors will include chisel sharpness,,,, depth of cut,,, angle at which you hold your chisel,,, and, how far you are away from the desired cut-line. When you're doing your final cut to the line, you want the flat side of the chisel against the cut-line, and the bevel-side facing the waste-side of the cut.

 

[Skylar303]

Skylar303, I might be wrong here, but, I suspect you may have been using your chisel with the flat-side facing the waste side of the wood, and the bevel facing the "good" side. (I'm struggling trying to put this into words)

Imagine that you're cutting straight down into a piece of wood with the chisel held completely vertical , and the tip of the chisel is buried to the point where the entire bevel is buried. What you'll see is, the bevel will have more surface-area contacting the wood, compared to the flat side of the chisel. When you strike that chisel again, the chisel's flat side will want to "slide" away from the bevel side,,, compressing the wood fibers. The bevel side will tend to "push away" from the good side of the wood, possibly causing yout tear-out issue. Other factors will include chisel sharpness,,,, depth of cut,,, angle at which you hold your chisel,,, and, how far you are away from the desired cut-line. When you're doing your final cut to the line, you want the flat side of the chisel against the cut-line, and the bevel-side facing the waste-side of the cut.

Hey Bobby,
Not a problem at all I'm still learning, a lot apparently. That makes sense, so you think I'm just trying to take too much down at a time? Probably mixed with other issues I'm doing wrong... And the home depot cheapo chisels probably don't help lol. I did pick up some cheaper chisels that are sold as wood chisels so maybe that'll help.

 

[MarcelNL]

what chisel you use makes less difference than you think, at least when they are sharp and used correctly...good chisels just add that extra 10% and stay sharp longer etc. Learning how far you can go taking off material IMO is an instrumental part of the learning curvein using chisels.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Hey Bobby,
Not a problem at all I'm still learning, a lot apparently. That makes sense, so you think I'm just trying to take too much down at a time? Probably mixed with other issues I'm doing wrong... And the home depot cheapo chisels probably don't help lol. I did pick up some cheaper chisels that are sold as wood chisels so maybe that'll help.

It's a little more complex than that because there can be a combination of minor factors combining to give a poor result; for example,,, you might be striking the chisel a little too hard for the specific level of sharpness of that chisel,,, or,,,, if you're slanting the chisel as you strike downward, you may be slanting a little too much,,, or not enough. Let's say for example, your chisel has a 25 degree bevel. If you slant your chisel 25 degrees toward the flat side of the chisel, then, your bevel would now be vertical. Ideally, when you're sneaking up on a final cut, you're removing only a very thin layer of wood to shave away, which should be relatively effortless to pare away. Best to start that finish-cut with the flat side of the chisel against the inside of your cut-line and don't force it.

Regarding "cheapo" chisels,,,, many of those are perfectly adequate, but,,,, many will need a touch-up before use, and perhaps during use. You may require several sharpenings to complete a project,,, depending on how hard you've worked that chisel so far. If you can see light-reflection on the cutting edge,,, or,,, if the blade is not cutting smoothly, you need to re-sharpen, and don't forget to "flatten" the flat side of the chisel. You don't need to flatten the entire face,,,, just the area close to the cutting edge. Fine grit sandpaper on a dead flat surface should get you there quickly.

 

[TB_London]

Wood work tools are something that does benefit from high grit stones, more so than knives

 

[Skylar303]

It's a little more complex than that because there can be a combination of minor factors combining to give a poor result; for example,,, you might be striking the chisel a little too hard for the specific level of sharpness of that chisel,,, or,,,, if you're slanting the chisel as you strike downward, you may be slanting a little too much,,, or not enough. Let's say for example, your chisel has a 25 degree bevel. If you slant your chisel 25 degrees toward the flat side of the chisel, then, your bevel would now be vertical. Ideally, when you're sneaking up on a final cut, you're removing only a very thin layer of wood to shave away, which should be relatively effortless to pare away. Best to start that finish-cut with the flat side of the chisel against the inside of your cut-line and don't force it.

Regarding "cheapo" chisels,,,, many of those are perfectly adequate, but,,,, many will need a touch-up before use, and perhaps during use. You may require several sharpenings to complete a project,,, depending on how hard you've worked that chisel so far. If you can see light-reflection on the cutting edge,,, or,,, if the blade is not cutting smoothly, you need to re-sharpen, and don't forget to "flatten" the flat side of the chisel. You don't need to flatten the entire face,,,, just the area close to the cutting edge. Fine grit sandpaper on a dead flat surface should get you there quickly.

Yeah that's what I was doing with the Poplar and had good results. Until I broke it with too much force... Anyways I gave it another try today and had quite a bit better results. (I think) I had one small spot tearout near the top. The rest is pretty clean then I'll slowly take it back to the line when I get to my depth. (About double its current)

Yeah the 'woodworking' chisels I grabbed today were actually in worse condition than the HD ones... So had to clean them up, my 3/4" had a nice 1mm chip... I did watch a few sharpening videos so I think I have that part down. And yeah the backs, apparently a lot of people forget?

 

[Dan-]

Invest in these: https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/sho...847-veritas-pm-v11-bench-chisels?item=05S2112

Even if you buy just one (3/4 or 1”) you’ll come out ahead. They may seem expensive right up until you ruin a piece made with wood that costs even more because you used cheap tools.

 

[Skylar303]

Invest in these: https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/sho...847-veritas-pm-v11-bench-chisels?item=05S2112

Even if you buy just one (3/4 or 1”) you’ll come out ahead. They may seem expensive right up until you ruin a piece made with wood that costs even more because you used cheap tools.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Any reason in particular these are pretty expensive? Metal? Blessed by a gnome? I don't doubt the price is justified, just curious. Never really got into precision tools, if you can even put chisels in that category...

 

[Bobby2shots]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Any reason in particular these are pretty expensive? Metal? Blessed by a gnome? I don't doubt the price is justified, just curious. Never really got into precision tools, if you can even put chisels in that category...

The PM-v11 stands for "powdered metal version 2"

Personally, I find them a bit over-priced. Very nice but, not necessary for occaisional-use. That said, they're top-notch and well-backed from Lee Valley.

One brand that's making waves these days is Narex. Their high-end model is the Narex Richter series. Very well made,,, good steel,,,easy to sharpen,,, and sensibly priced.

Narex also has other series such as the more affordable Narex 'Premium" and "Classic". Here's a blurb on their top-of-the-line Richter series (Canadian pricing)

https://www.northwestpassagetools.com/collections/narex/products/narex-richter-5-piece-chisel-set
My chisels range from the old Marples BlueChips, to Ulmia, Hirsch,,,and mostly Lie-Nielsen socket chisels,,,, as well as a few Japanese chisels. There are many types of chisels, so you want to be sure to buy the appropriate style of chisel for the way you work and the task at hand. (Firmer chisels,,, bench chisels,,, mortise chisels,,, carving chisels,,, dovetail chisels,,, skew chisels,,, and more). You'll also want to avoid chisels that don't have flat backs.

 

[coxhaus]

I bought a Stanley Fat Max set which seems nice for cheap money. I have an old English made Marples set that I like. And my favorites are my new Stanley Sweet heart set. I have several old American made brands that probably are my best ones but these are hard to find on eBay and no sets are available.

A Worksharp 3000 makes short work on sharpening chisels. It is real fast.

 

[Skylar303]

The PM-v11 stands for "powdered metal version 2"

Personally, I find them a bit over-priced. Very nice but, not necessary for occaisional-use. That said, they're top-notch and well-backed from Lee Valley.

One brand that's making waves these days is Narex. Their high-end model is the Narex Richter series. Very well made,,, good steel,,,easy to sharpen,,, and sensibly priced.

Narex also has other series such as the more affordable Narex 'Premium" and "Classic". Here's a blurb on their top-of-the-line Richter series (Canadian pricing)

https://www.northwestpassagetools.com/collections/narex/products/narex-richter-5-piece-chisel-set
My chisels range from the old Marples BlueChips, to Ulmia, Hirsch,,,and mostly Lie-Nielsen socket chisels,,,, as well as a few Japanese chisels. There are many types of chisels, so you want to be sure to buy the appropriate style of chisel for the way you work and the task at hand. (Firmer chisels,,, bench chisels,,, mortise chisels,,, carving chisels,,, dovetail chisels,,, skew chisels,,, and more). You'll also want to avoid chisels that don't have flat backs.

Thanks for the info, I actually think I made improvement today. Not sure if it's the new chisels, lighter taps, or taking less material. But didn't have any tearout.

Yeah those are a bit out of my range for 1 chisel. But the Narex set is definitely more sensible price wise.

Hah, I got some research to do on different chisel types. I definitely need a gouge of some type to get tight rounded corners where the 1/4" can't cut. The wider ones I just slowly work with the 1/4".

 

[Skylar303]

I bought a Stanley Fat Max set which seems nice for cheap money. I have an old English made Marples set that I like. And my favorites are my new Stanley Sweet heart set. I have several old American made brands that probably are my best ones but these are hard to find on eBay and no sets are available.

A Worksharp 3000 makes short work on sharpening chisels. It is real fast.

Hey thanks I'll check out those, they maybe even more close to my price range, seeing as I started with HDX chisels, and 'upgraded' to a $15 Harbor Frieght set... So that's kinda where I'm at, at the moment. I just want something that gets the job done, doesn't matter if they're vintage or what not ha.

 

[MarcelNL]

if you can look beyond rust and botched grinds or a rehandle job you may be able to find great old chisels at fleamarkets, at least here in my region I keep bumping into them...nowadays hardlay anybody knows how to use them or knows what they are for. Some restoration work, as long as there still is usable length in them (most somehow seem to have about half left) and you're in business for little money.