Clad double bevel knives & quality control

[HRC_64]

This seems to be the best shot of them...no idea from the IG about construction questions
...image is just for the thread...

 

[Migraine]

Are you absolutely certain these are San mai construction? If not, maybe you could ask Will?

It looks like forged mono to me with the glint of the edge bevel showing up in photos. I have one of Will’s pre-forgie Monos and the edge bevel is like this, and perfect.

...
Steel is san mai , mild steel 1.2442 core...

Directly lifted from the Instagram message will sent me.

 

[labor of love]

@Migraine can you take close up shots of the edge? I can’t see where the cladding ends and the core steel begins in any of those pics at all.

 

[Migraine]

I memory serves, I think there might be a reference to the fact there's only a very small amount of exposed core steel on this style of knife in the maintenance videos on Will's website.

I'm not in a position to check right now.

 

[Migraine]

@Migraine can you take close up shots of the edge? I can’t see where the cladding ends and the core steel begins in any of those pics at all.

I tried last night but my phone camera is wank. I'll have a go with the girl's one.

 

[milkbaby]

Just curious:
Say I want to make a knife with a lamination line that has dramatic, artful wobbles, like that Carter knife referenced above. How do I do it?

Sorry we're going a little off-topic here, but a quick answer is that forging causes variations in the layers. If each layer was totally even in thickness, then the cladding would just follow the geometry of the grind. It still follows the grind, but changes due to the forging induced variation.

Below is a Timothy Johnson/Carter Hopkins collaboration. I believe it's prelaminated Vtoku2 (you can get it in the US from Bladegallery, in the EU should be available from Dictum and Workshop Heaven?), and Tim just cold forged/hammered it in the annealed state to get the variation in the cladding. I remember asking him about it somewhere, but I can't find the message right now.

 

[Matus]

That looks like diffusion of carbon into the stainless cladding - the effect was optically magnified by etching.

 

[labor of love]

I tried last night but my phone camera is wank. I'll have a go with the girl's one.

Are you happy with your purchase?

 

[Mynci]

FYI- (Catcheside) Wills Knives are plain mild steel clad 1.2442. They are forged geometry , so the edge and centre of the knife are dramatically thinner, by forging under soft fullered power hammer dies.....core and cladding start with about the same thickness of core as cladding, or a bit less... . the core gets thinned down with the cladding , cladding more so as it yields more, forging in a power hammer keeps everything central, so you end up with a very even core/clad balance, but you wont see the core rising up high like ground knives or forged taper ground knives even, generally the more forging the thinner the core will appear..... but when the forging is done right it makes it stay very even and central, but where its thin and there are miss hammer blows, or sharp blows, or the edge is kinked and straightened during forging, thats where you might get a situation where the core is kinked and a bit of cladding crosses the edge,....quite difficult to put a divot into the edge in a power hammer unless a piece of thick scale jumps in between die and work during finishing blows, this is a very common cause of problems your discussing ..... but easily avoided by cleaning your old hard scale away from the catch pan ......

 

[Migraine]

Are you happy with your purchase?

Literally couldn't be happier. Was just interested following the discussion.

 

[YG420]

My custom Catchy has some low lying cladding that is at or very near the edge towards the heel but it doesnt bother me at all. I dont have pics as the knifes with Jon getting a saya. Ive also had several katos where you can see from the choil shots that the core wasnt fully centered, kinda cocked to one side or the other. Probably wouldnt be a problem for a looooong time and im pretty sure that i wouldnt wear it down to where it would be a problem.

 

[milkbaby]

That looks like diffusion of carbon into the stainless cladding - the effect was optically magnified by etching.

Yes, there must be carbon diffusion into the cladding. I found the messages between us, it was New Jersey Steel Baron 52100 clad with 410 stainless. Tim said the pattern was produced by rounds of grinding and hammering with test etch to see what was going on with the pattern. Obviously, won't see the effect of carbon diffusion until after the HT. Ironically, he said the hardest issue was keeping the core centered while grinding LOL

 

[CutFingers]

Sadly i don't think the on-line knife vendors really care much...I've had my share of problem knives...what I've learned is to stop listening to hype...reality is properly hardened mono steel carbon is equally good as forged/clad knives...if not better...Better heat treat, better edge retention, and absolutely zero chance of hideous overgrinds or need to grind more because of a poorly clad job.

Of course it's not say they aren't good. But designer boutique clad knives are often just pretty...a good knife doesn't need to be ornate or fancy.

With anything hand made there is going to be variation...I think I'd rather have a cheap Tosa knife...knowing that I can grind lot's of material off and get a straight knife...These very thin boutique knives as you have shown can have defects...sometimes in order to correct them you have to remove more metal...or live with it.

I will never buy a Masakage knife again...hand crafted and beautiful....but not functional enough for me.

 

[labor of love]

I dunno I’ve never had this sorta issue before with the online vendors I order from. Not saying it couldn’t happen but if it did I certainly would be proactive about exchanging the knife.

 

[McMan]

Sadly i don't think the on-line knife vendors really care much...I've had my share of problem knives...what I've learned is to stop listening to hype...reality is properly hardened mono steel carbon is equally good as forged/clad knives...if not better...Better heat treat, better edge retention, and absolutely zero chance of hideous overgrinds or need to grind more because of a poorly clad job.

Of course it's not say they aren't good. But designer boutique clad knives are often just pretty...a good knife doesn't need to be ornate or fancy.

With anything hand made there is going to be variation...I think I'd rather have a cheap Tosa knife...knowing that I can grind lot's of material off and get a straight knife...These very thin boutique knives as you have shown can have defects...sometimes in order to correct them you have to remove more metal...or live with it.

I will never buy a Masakage knife again...hand crafted and beautiful....but not functional enough for me.

Funny you should mention Masakage... It's the only j-knife I've ever had to send back due to cladding issues. The cladding was all over the edge, in multiple spots. The replacement was a beaut. Yet another example of QC...

 

[labor of love]

Y’all aren’t talking about the Koishi line right?

 

[CutFingers]

My knife was the Shimo line...clad knives can have problems...I'd rather have a "seconds" option than to pay a premium for the knife. But I think most first time buyers or average users aren't going to get involved.

My luck these days is big cheap carbon...the low end japanese knives are every bit as good as the expensive models. Only problem is you need to spend time thinning and honing them into something.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

I broke out my old workhorse gyuto to shape up for some home use. I purchased this Ittosai 270mm from Korin circa 2004.

I got started on my thinning project and realized I had my work cut out for me. More than I expected.

I spent quite a few years sharpening 80/20, with the original grind. I probably removed far less material than you’d imagine because I was never taught how to sharpen properly until I started researching and collaborating as I was exposed to better sharpeners in the past 8-10 years.

I realize there’s not enough information for a proper answer but I’m asking- Anyway, what are the odds there’s a problem with the cladding/core instead of this being just sharpened off center for too long?

 

[frank358fr]

Awesome knife

 

[SilverSwarfer]

Here’s some older pics from before I started thinning.