Coarse stone

Discussion in 'Sharpening Station' started by idemhj, Apr 24, 2015.

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums by donating:

  1. Apr 24, 2015 #1

    idemhj

    idemhj

    idemhj

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Denmark
    Before i started freehand sharpening I never would have thought it, but now I know - higher grit stones are easy to find and easy to like (even though they tend to be expensive).

    Finding a good coarse grit stone - and by coarse grit I mean something below 300 - is really hard.

    I live in Europe and have, so far as I see it, the following options: Shapton pro 220 (hard), Sun Tiger 240 (soft, really soft), Imanishi Bester 220 (medium hard). I already have Naniwa pro 400 and JNS 300, but I am looking for something faster cutting. I also have an Atoma 140, but I really hate it (for anything else than flattening - for which I love it). What would be your recommendation?

    I am leaning towards the Bester, but I am open to suggestions. Buying from the US or Japan is not an option - that would be far to expensive. I am not necessarily a fan of hard stones, I like the Naniwa pros, but I also have a King 800 and I like that as well. Perhaps this is an impossible question since it all boils down to personal preference, but any and all input would be highly appreciated.
     
  2. Apr 24, 2015 #2

    CutFingers

    CutFingers

    CutFingers

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2014
    Messages:
    316
    Coarser stones release bigger particles faster, and wear faster. I'm not saying it doesn't matter what stone you get, but I guess I'm saying get whatever your budget allows. There is no good or bad in coarse stones. In fact the quality of a coarse stone, is in the user not the materials. Use them wisely.

    If you don't plan on thinning often anything will do...and I do mean anything. Cheap combination hardware store stones contain enough abrasive to get the job done and only cost a few bucks.
     
  3. Apr 27, 2015 #3

    Marcelo Amaral

    Marcelo Amaral

    Marcelo Amaral

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,453
    Have you tried King Deluxe 300? It will probably not be faster than your Shapton 220, i imagine.
     
  4. Apr 28, 2015 #4

    psfred

    psfred

    psfred

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    522
    The King Deluxe 300 is a great stone, very hard, wears very slowly, but cuts like crazy. I use my as a splash and go, too, although it is a bit thirsty that way.

    Used with light pressure it makes gray swarf that appears to be only metal, no grit, and stays flat a very long time. High pressure causes a bit more wear, but not much.

    I ordered mine from Stu a few years ago, I've never seen in in the US or on the auction site.

    Peter
     
    Hamesjo likes this.
  5. May 1, 2015 #5

    idemhj

    idemhj

    idemhj

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Denmark
    Thank you guys. It seems the King 300 gets some love and I can actually buy it in Europe. However, the reason I didn't include it among my original candidates was that on the fine-tools homepages it says: "Notice: This stone is for carbon steel blades only. Alloyed steel blocks the grain." And since I am mainly going to use it for thinning down stainless clad blades, I thought that perhaps it wasn't the best option; but now I think I'll give it a try. After all, coarse stones seem to be very much a question of personal preference -- and, fortunately, they are not that expensive... Sooner or later I might find one that I like.
     
  6. May 1, 2015 #6

    chinacats

    chinacats

    chinacats

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2012
    Messages:
    6,850
    I've been enjoying the Suehiro Cerax 320. I find it to be a very productive stone...though should say that I mostly use it on carbon/iron clad knives. Bonus is that you can get full brick size from Stu so should still be cheap in Europe.
     
  7. May 1, 2015 #7

    osakajoe

    osakajoe

    osakajoe

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    525
    I love and use all the time the sigma select ii #240 stone. Not sure exactly where in Europe to get it but I can search around if you want. Just an initial search online fine-tools.com comes up but I'm not sure if anyone has dealt with them before.
     
  8. May 1, 2015 #8

    Dardeau

    Dardeau

    Dardeau

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1,855
    King 300 works on my Heiji semi stainless, and a couple of Yoshikane semi stainless I picked up without clogging. I haven't tried anything really gummy on it though.
     
  9. May 1, 2015 #9

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    7,146
    I like the sigma 240 for hardcore thinning.
     
  10. May 1, 2015 #10

    Lizzardborn

    Lizzardborn

    Lizzardborn

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2014
    Messages:
    297
    I have bought the sigma 1200 and 400 from them. They have some problems with writing the full address (I had to contact DHL twice), but otherwise very fast and correct.
     
  11. May 1, 2015 #11

    panda

    panda

    panda

    O.G. Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    6,369
    Location:
    south florida
    I really hated the sigma 240, awful feeling and clogs like crazy. Would like to try the king 300.
     
  12. May 1, 2015 #12
    I have a very good experience with JNS300. It is splash&go, wears slowly and cuts fast.
     
  13. May 1, 2015 #13

    osakajoe

    osakajoe

    osakajoe

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    525
    Yes it will dish fast and create a slur. But taking into consideration how fast it cuts, I don't mind that at all. Just rinse with water real fast, very easy to clear it. I sharpen professionally and time is most important, and that's the rough stone I use the most out of my 20-30 stone selection.
     
  14. May 2, 2015 #14

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    7,146
    My opinion of the sigma 240 changed drastically once I began using it in conjunction with a sink bridge and a light drizzle of water.
     
    Knife2meatu likes this.
  15. May 2, 2015 #15

    osakajoe

    osakajoe

    osakajoe

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    525
    Yeah this stone on a sink bridge cute out the clogging issue. Just make sure to flatten the stone regularly.
     
  16. May 2, 2015 #16

    panda

    panda

    panda

    O.G. Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    6,369
    Location:
    south florida
    i could not get over the feedback issue, lol
     
  17. May 2, 2015 #17

    mhpr262

    mhpr262

    mhpr262

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    Messages:
    313
    ----> [​IMG]
     
  18. Feb 21, 2019 #18

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    67
    King 300 vs Shapton Glass 220
    TL;DR = Want to hear feedback on cutting speed difference between king 300 and the Sglass 220.

    I'm a big fan of the King 300, its been the backbone of my setup for a while now. It took over the heavy lifting after I killed 4/5'ths of my chosera 400 - using that for harsher repair work than its really intended for (didn't know any better back then).

    Now, after a ton of groundwork on countless knives, my King 300 is getting low on life, about 1/3 of it is left (for this stone that's a lot of sharpening life, its very wear resistant - I'm just planning for the future). I was simply going to buy a new one, however, I have to admit, for certain heavy tasks, the king 300 isn't as fast as I'd like.
    (I have to deal mostly with German/western stainless, but get lucky sometimes with gigs to sharpen nice high carbon stuff.)

    So, instead of just getting a new 300 for when my current one eventually fades away to nothing, I figured it'd be far better to act now and grab something coarser/faster cutting - this way it'll speed things up, and stretch out the remaining king 300's life by a huge margin. Does the Shapton Glass 220 cut noticeably faster (Considering I deal with mostly stainless)?

    I do own a 1" x 42" belt grinder for serious repair work (to prep for my king 300), however I'm far more experienced with stones, and although I've gotten more comfortable over time on the belt grinder, I can't get as accurate/consistent results as I can on stones. Its also not something I can take into restaurants which I need to do now and then; Its pretty noisy (1/4 hp 1725 rpm) and it doesn't have a proper vacuum to take in the debris/particulates - not kitchen friendly like whetstones can be.

    I'm currently limited to stuff on Amazon.CA (free really fast shipping), though there's another online retailer within fast/affordable shipping to my area with the SGlass 220 for 25% off regular retail price, so really tempted to snag that. Just wanted to hear feedback on cutting speed difference between king 300 and the sg220.
    Thx :D
     
  19. Feb 21, 2019 #19

    PappaG

    PappaG

    PappaG

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    189
    I think you will find both the SG and Shapton pro 220 to cut faster, and wear faster than the king 300.
     
  20. Feb 21, 2019 #20

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Can you tell me why you use the
    Can you please tell me why you prefer the Sigma 240 to either a coarser stone or a diamond stone. Thanks
     
  21. Feb 21, 2019 #21

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    1,049
    I have both the shappro 220 and glass220 they are both ultra fast stones. the pro wears a bit faster and is a bit slower, but its twice as thick.
     
  22. Mar 17, 2019 #22

    Foltest

    Foltest

    Foltest

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Messages:
    59
    I like the shapton pro 120, good speed and dishes slowly
     
  23. Mar 18, 2019 #23

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    67
    I got the glass 220 and love it. Speed-wise, it completely obliterates the King 300 deluxe, its really on a totally different level, FAR more than what you might expect from only an #80 grit difference.

    Despite this, I still consider the King 300 one of the best value, cost effective coarse stones on the market. Although its nowhere near as fast cutting as the glass 220, it is SEVEN times as thick (King 300 = 34mm thick, shapton glass= 5mm).

    5mm thickness of the King 300 VS. Shapton Glass 220 (5mm thick total):
    For *the same amount of metal removal*, its hard to say which would actually last longer. Because of the cutting speed difference, this might be a little closer than you'd think.

    Just consider if the speed makes it worth it for you personally.

    Milimeter for Milimeter, most SG stones are somewhat justifiable because of their significant wear resistance, especially the higher grit you go; I havent tried the SG 120, however, the 220 glass dishes/wears noticably, signifincantly quicker than even the SG 500 (which I recently got also).

    If you're on a strict budget and don't mind spending the extra time/effort on grinding work, the King 300 is an easy winner. If, for you, saving time and effort/energy is important, or if you sharpen professionally when often "time=money", then shapton glass 220 can make up for it's faster wearing/dishing, and higher relative cost.
     
  24. Mar 18, 2019 #24

    Keith Sinclair

    Keith Sinclair

    Keith Sinclair

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,616
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Use the 1x42 belt a lot to thin dull stainless knives. Have no problem using a 140 atoma. No need to press too hard let diamonds do the work the plate will last longer.
    I finish off peoples home knives with the JKI-- 1k diamond stone. It leaves a good edge on cheaper stainless, and so far seems to still be working effectively. If the home blades are better quality finish of with the King 1k hyper.

    Personally can't get too excited about course stones generally they wear too fast if you are sharpening lots of knives. If you have a couple already just use them up, not like you will find the perfect coarse stone. They are designed to remove steel quicker. I use the Xtra large gesshin 400 at the culinary school. Like it because of it's size will last longer.
     
  25. Mar 18, 2019 #25

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    7,146
    I get all these low grit shaptons people talk about confused. Good to know the 220 glass is fast. Does it clog up a lot?
     
  26. Mar 18, 2019 #26

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    67
    Metal particulate buildup stays mostly within the water/slurry above, it doesn't get clogged down into the stone below much; just a dash of water clears it right off easily.

    The shapton glass 500 is drastically different - totally aside from just the coarseness difference. Unlike the glass 220, it really loves to hug metal particulates on to its surface, though this isn't too hard to clear off. You actually won't need anything other than water and a little rub with your palm/fingers, unless you let it dry for even a few minutes, in which case you'll need a cleaning stone or other method to gently lap it clear.

    The king 300 seems to have some more significant clog-up issues, which can slow down it's cutting speed. Its hard to tell because the stone is a somewhat dark gray colour which slightly hides metal particle buildup. I feel like since the king 300 stays flat for so long, people don't lap it as often, really compounding the clogging issue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
    Keith Sinclair likes this.
  27. Mar 18, 2019 #27

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    67
    Nice, I also use a 1x42 belt grinder (with 80 - 120 grit zirconia for thinning / major edge repairs), these make life so much easier, wouldn't you say :)

    Using the belt grinder as a first step on heavy work before starting on the glass 220 is really saving the 220's lifespan. For just minor chipping or something that just needs minor thinning though, I'll skip the belt grinder and go straight to SGlass 220.
    The chosera 800 can take most of the 220 scratches out of soft stainless without much work, but for higher end blades I'll follow the 220 with either a chosera 400 or Sglass 500 before the 800. For finishing stainless, shapton pro 2k and just a light strop on chosera 3k, then newspaper. Harder steels go up to 6k(king)/8k(kitayama)/12k(shapton pro/kuromaku), depending on the type of alloy.
     
    Keith Sinclair likes this.
  28. Mar 18, 2019 #28

    foody518

    foody518

    foody518

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,606

    I'd say that you would find that speed difference of King 300 vs some other coarse stone to be less attributable to the 80 grit of difference and more to that the King 300 seems to be relatively slow cutting both for edge work and thinning compared to probably everything else I've tried in the 300-500 grit range.
     
  29. Mar 18, 2019 #29

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Drayquan

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    67
    I'm sure you're right for a number of other stones in the 300-400 range, though I'm really curious to know what 500 grit stones you've tried that cut faster than the king 300... was it a silicon carbide 500 grit perhaps. ?
    The King 300 cuts just a little faster than the Chosera/Naniwa pro 400 for example (while also being suprisingly more wear-resistant than that 400).
    ...Speaking of the Chosera 400 (and since we're in a "coarse stone" thread), just want to mention that is one of my fav stones of all time for it's versitility - just coarse enough for speedy (minor) repair work, and if really used correctly, can also produce a shaving-sharp edge, great feedback too.
     
    Keith Sinclair likes this.
  30. Mar 18, 2019 #30

    foody518

    foody518

    foody518

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,606
    I ought to use it a bit more, but current I'm perceiving the Shapton Glass 500 to cut more easily and faster than my King 300 Deluxe. The Chosera/Pro 400 I think of as a nice 600 grit... There's a mental list of stones I would feasibly want to use to follow up a gross 120 grit stone, and that one isn't one of them.
     

Share This Page