Coticule help

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I have tried some barber hones. But I would much rather use my shapton pro 12k/ super stone 12k/ or fast coticule for the same purpose.

That being said my favorite that I have tried is a Cattaraugus Injun. That is one of the predecessor companies of Case and I like that hone quite a bit for travel where I wouldn't want to risk breaking or losing one of my nice vintage coticules. It wouldn't be enough to fix any real damage but it could make a razor passable.
 
M1k3 said:
Do you have any links to those sites? I found one site for Hindostans. Other results so far seem to be useless.
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I am just an ebay junkie. I don't see jasper come up often. I have bought two out of the maybe 5 I have seen in the last 3 years. There's always Escher's/Thuringians if you're willing to shill out big bucks. I've tried to bid on some non-labelled ones but always get sniped.
Nice bench size surgical black/translucent/butterscotch arks come up often and can be had for $80-100. Small vintage coticules come up often and can be had for 50-60$. Bench size washitas are often available for $50 or so clean and labeled. And you can usually find them for $20 or less caked in kerosene if you know how to spot them. I actually got mine at a flea market in Vegas.
 
Grayswandir said:
Oh wow, didn't realize there were others outside of the Arkansas stones, sweet. I didn't know there were geographic guides either, that's excellent, thanks. The only other stone (American) I recall hearing about was called a "Washita" or something similar? A guy on Etsy (Tomo Nagura) sells some Washita slurry stones for honing. I'd like to taker a shot at one of those mystery lots one of these days. I think there's one right now, something like 6 or 7 different stones. Last time I checked it was around $25 bucks (auction).

What type of Jnat do you own?

Thanks for the heads up Steampunk, I'll check it out. Yeah, it seemed like a nice crowd of people.
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I would very strongly recommend getting a proper old Washita before the prices go completely out of control. They are an extraordinary stone, without equal anywhere, and still available for less than hard arks. They may not be as fine as the latter, but in many ways a markedly superior stone.

Even the harder versions are comparatively quick cutting; Turkish stones will finish around the same grit, and beat them for speed (though not by much), but a Turkish doesn't have the massive low-end range of a Washita. I haven't used millions of them, but the ones I have seem to run from about 800 - 7k, in one stone, whereas a Turkish might be 4-7k. They're also going to be cheaper than an old Turkish. Lovely edges for kitchen knives, wouldn't use one on a razor, and best with oil, ime.

Watch out though - there are a few stones sold nowadays as Washitas which aren't the same thing. Though they seem relatively easy to tell apart, especially if it's got crazy pretty patterns on it - it's probably not a Washita.
 
Slurry breakdown and geology are interesting subjects too. Which I knew nothing about 6 months ago, but have a semi-reasonable grasp of now...

Even in terms of basic rock type - jnats are not things that can be talked about as a single entity. Most jnats, especially the finer ones are hard shales/mudstones from marine deposits. And 'shale' itself is quite a broad term and encompasses stones made from all sorts of different mud or silt type deposits. They are classic sedimentary rocks and can run from incredibly soft to mega hard, depending on the effect of lithification. There are also some jnats which would probably be considered 'sandstones' - a similar affair, but more sandy (duh), with the Silica / quartz content from inorganic deposits. There are some metamorphic jnats too, and I believe some igneous stones. You can no more apply generalizations to them that you could a Hindustan and an Ark because they're both from the US.

All this means that any slurry 'breakdown' effect will depend on the stone in question. Though I saw something recently which concludes that the effect is at least overplayed, and in this instance non-existent, in terms of the abrasive particles: Does Jnat Slurry Break Down?

The stone used there is a Nakayama Asagi - a very hard and fine shale type I think. The results may not apply to others.

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All of the above is just my understanding, do feel free to correct me if I've got anything wrong.
 
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stringer said:
My razor finishers are American stones. Owhyhee jasper from Utah/Oregon and Arkansas stones.
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stringer said:
I have tried some barber hones. But I would much rather use my shapton pro 12k/ super stone 12k/ or fast coticule for the same purpose.
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I found some vintage barber hones in good shape, agree they don't leave the nicest edge, but will shave. Agree that harder, flatter stones have made for nicer shaves. My 8k synth is OK, but Ark and Cot edges feel nicer. Little jnat experience sadly.

Worth mentioning that the razor world opened up when I got a decent cotton/leather strop. I haven't honed one time since I got the strop, and the shaves are far nicer. I'm sure there are honing pros that put me to shame, but the strop helped out this amateur.
 
captaincaed said:
I found some vintage barber hones in good shape, agree they don't leave the nicest edge, but will shave. Agree that harder, flatter stones have made for nicer shaves. My 8k synth is OK, but Ark and Cot edges feel nicer. Little jnat experience sadly.

Worth mentioning that the razor world opened up when I got a decent cotton/leather strop. I haven't honed one time since I got the strop, and the shaves are far nicer. I'm sure there are honing pros that put me to shame, but the strop helped out this amateur.
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I've tried lots of strops. But only flea market/ebay stuff. What I have settled on is a women's flax linen woven belt from Salvation Army and a vintage no-name shell horsehide strop.
 
stringer said:
I've tried lots of strops. But only flea market/ebay stuff. What I have settled on is a women's flax linen woven belt from Salvation Army and a vintage no-name shell horsehide strop.
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Check out Duke City Shaving, it's an ebay store. The guy sells a really good strop for very reasonable money.

3" Duke City Buffalo Straight Razor Strop (Midnight Black) Hand Crafted

He's a friend of mine. He doesn't make much of a profit off of his strops. He sells them because he loves shaving, and wants people to have access to good products, but without breaking the bank.

Me personally, I bought a little 2" strop from Etsy for $35. It's a nice strop, has nice stainless hooks and loops, but it doesn't come with the cotton or nylon strop besides the leather. If I had known about Duke City Shaving at the time, I would have bought the Duke City Buffalo strop instead.
 
stringer said:
I've tried lots of strops. But only flea market/ebay stuff. What I have settled on is a women's flax linen woven belt from Salvation Army and a vintage no-name shell horsehide strop.
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Sounds perfect!

I got the basic version from Heirloom. Seemed popular on BnB, feels great.l, $50 for the combo.
https://heirloomrazorstrop.com/
 
captaincaed said:
Do you notice much difference from a more basic strop?
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The leather is incredibly smooth, it is a real pleasure to use.
With respect to results, I actually do not know (when my daughter was born I switched to a DE razor, I didn't shave with a SR long enough to be able to say something about it).
 
cotedupy said:
You were spot-on about the bottom two stones - they're both bonded to BBW. They top one I haven't yet received as the seller forgot to include it, so is sending separately.

The longer of the two had a crack in one end and was coming away from the BBW, so I decided to just saw that bit off and make a slurry stone from it rather than ballsing around with glue. Really good stone, and surprisingly quick, as you said:

View attachment 137597

The other one seems a bit slower and finer, but has something quite interesting on the BBW layer... this isn't a natural combo - the BBW is glued on, but the surface of it looks like a thin hybrid layer (?), which give the stone a tricolour effect. Have you seen that kind of thing before...?

It may even be a third stone glued onto the BBW for all I know! It's certainly quite a straight division...

View attachment 137598

View attachment 137599
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My guess would be it's from Petite-Blanche, or Nouvelle Veine. As the first few mm look hybrid, then rogue? And those would be the only 2 layers that would produce that type of layering. Unless it's not even hybrid hah. But I'm no expert either. But curious to find out.

You mention it doesn't act like BBW or Coticule, is it glassy? Slight grainy feedback? Does almost nothing without slurry?

I know it's an older thread so wondering if you found out anything more about this one?
 
The surface prep on the harder coticules really can effect the type of edge you can achieve. A freshly dmt lapped hard coticule might tear up the edge of a straight razor, but will put some bite on a knife. They do cut high wear resistant steel. I have honed M390 hard steel on one of my coticules with good results. I prefer to use Vetrified diamond plates, but coticules are cutting this steel quite well.
For knifes i do not use slurry stones. I just refresh the surface with a dmt/atoma to increase the cutting efficiency. The softer stones do not respond the same way, so this will have a marginal effect on these.
They are expensive for the size you get in my opinion.
For softer kitchen knifes an Atoma 1200 to coticules is a really nice combination. You just need to stop before the edge mellows out to much.
I prefer my La lunes and Jnats if i use a natural stone for kitchen knifes.
The La lune stone cuts really fast with slurry and leaves a little bite.
 
JPO said:
The surface prep on the harder coticules really can effect the type of edge you can achieve. A freshly dmt lapped hard coticule might tear up the edge of a straight razor, but will put some bite on a knife. They do cut high wear resistant steel. I have honed M390 hard steel on one of my coticules with good results. I prefer to use Vetrified diamond plates, but coticules are cutting this steel quite well.
For knifes i do not use slurry stones. I just refresh the surface with a dmt/atoma to increase the cutting efficiency. The softer stones do not respond the same way, so this will have a marginal effect on these.
They are expensive for the size you get in my opinion.
For softer kitchen knifes an Atoma 1200 to coticules is a really nice combination. You just need to stop before the edge mellows out to much.
I prefer my La lunes and Jnats if i use a natural stone for kitchen knifes.
The La lune stone cuts really fast with slurry and leaves a little bite.
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Nice good bit of info. 👍 One thing, probably not a big issue for knifes. But with razors on cotis it's reccomend not to use a diamond plate to raise slurry. Since it's spessartine garnets is the main abrasive is much softer than garnets it can break them making them sharp instead of "round". You maybe okay with a worn plate, but in theory it would still make them jagged just maybe not as severely. Just my 2 cents from what I read.
 
Skylar303 said:
My guess would be it's from Petite-Blanche, or Nouvelle Veine. As the first few mm look hybrid, then rogue? And those would be the only 2 layers that would produce that type of layering. Unless it's not even hybrid hah. But I'm no expert either. But curious to find out.

You mention it doesn't act like BBW or Coticule, is it glassy? Slight grainy feedback? Does almost nothing without slurry?

I know it's an older thread so wondering if you found out anything more about this one?
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Umm I didn't manage to find out anything about the green bit no. And I actually sold it, so can't go re-check, but I remember not particularly liking it in comparison to normal BBW. It seemed harder and didn't slurry as well I don't think - felt a bit odd.
 
cotedupy said:
Umm I didn't manage to find out anything about the green bit no. And I actually sold it, so can't go re-check, but I remember not particularly liking it in comparison to normal BBW. It seemed harder and didn't slurry as well I don't think - felt a bit odd.
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Ha no worries, there are still plenty that have good qualities. It may have been a killer stone at one point until where it's at now and started acting like that, then just set aside. 😆
 
Skylar303 said:
Nice good bit of info. 👍 One thing, probably not a big issue for knifes. But with razors on cotis it's reccomend not to use a diamond plate to raise slurry. Since it's spessartine garnets is the main abrasive is much softer than garnets it can break them making them sharp instead of "round". You maybe okay with a worn plate, but in theory it would still make them jagged just maybe not as severely. Just my 2 cents from what I read.
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Yes, diamond slurry is really not recommended for razors. If i use a coticule for knifes i do not use slurry at all. I condition the surface with a dmt plate and use it with water.
I do not use coticule slurry on my hard coticules on razors either. The garnets do not brake down, so a hard stone used with slurry is not a optimal solution in my opinion. If the coticule is lapped i do smooth out the surface with a slurry stone before i use it. The hardest coticule (les lat) i have is close in hardness to a black arkensas stone. So these stones vary allot, but if you know what you look for they can be really good.
 
JPO said:
Yes, diamond slurry is really not recommended for razors. If i use a coticule for knifes i do not use slurry at all. I condition the surface with a dmt plate and use it with water.
I do not use coticule slurry on my hard coticules on razors either. The garnets do not brake down, so a hard stone used with slurry is not a optimal solution in my opinion. If the coticule is lapped i do smooth out the surface with a slurry stone before i use it. The hardest coticule (les lat) i have is close in hardness to a black arkensas stone. So these stones vary allot, but if you know what you look for they can be really good.
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With your hard coti, have you tried working it just under running water? Like in a sink, water continuously running over the surface?
 
Skylar303 said:
With your hard coti, have you tried working it just under running water? Like in a sink, water continuously running over the surface?
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Yes, but now we are talking about razor finishing. This is usually how i finish a razor if i use a coticule. To take the edge a little further i might finish with a few laps on some type of lubrication on the stone after the running water step.
If i use a synthetic progression up to 8k i just do some laps under running water. This works grate to.
If i do a full progression after a 1k stone on coticules i use convex stones and finish with a flat hard stone. I never use only one stone.
 
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