Curious about western profiled knives

[Danzo]

So, what’s good out there with the classic western shape? I picked up that little nogent on BST, and this non-gyuto shape has been intriguing.

I’ve tried the kramer carbon line. Cool knife with nice distal taper but the flat grind really turned me off.

I’ve not tried much beyond that, so what’s good?!

 

[TSF415]

Laseur…. The best fit and finish I’ve come across and a good performer with the slightest convexity.

 

[refcast]

Calton works well too

Asano kajiya is a japanese maker who does this profile and really great execution too, with the handle hybrid

 

[McMan]

Picked up this Hoehler (S. Af. Maker) from EE a few months ago.
Really digging the knife. Beautiful f/f.
I tried a Kramer euroline for the first time and didn't mind the profile (though found the knife handle-heavy).

 

[Danzo]

Anything non-custom?

 

[Benuser]

Robert Herder 1922 23cm chef's, C75W, 60Rc. Has kept the original profile of those days, which was very similar to the French one. Tip even lower than with modern Sabs.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Never used one myself but I've read a lot of positives on Warther Cutlery. CPM S45VN steel. I reckon the look is either take it or leave it.

https://warthercutlery.com/collections/chef-knives
North Arms Knives in Canada is another I've read good things about.

 

[Danzo]

Robert Herder 1922 23cm chef's, C75W, 60Rc. Has kept the original profile of those days, which was very similar to the French one. Tip even lower than with modern Sabs. View attachment 142445

these are flat ground? hows the taper?

 

[deskjockey]

I'm by no meaning an expert and probably not even a RKI.

With western 'factory' knives, I generally find them to be thick similar to the major German brands, and heavy with softer more stain-resistant steels, or really soft and flimsy if we are talking about the more common lines found in major retail chains.

You really have to go with a small boutique or true custom option to get something to come near a Japanese equivalent performance in the $100~$200 range.

Stay away from Cutco, Chef's Choice, etc. if you are looking for something that is going to outperform a Wusthoff or Henckels standard offering from the EU. I have heard the older Sabatier knives in carbon steel from France were pretty good.

If I was outside the USA and EU and wanted to try something, I would look to eBay and search the older carbon Sabatier options personally.

 

[Benuser]

these are flat ground? hows the taper?

Spine goes from 3.5mm to 0.7. Strong distal taper, attenuated by a relative thickening at the last centimetres from the tip. It doesn't end with a flimsy tip.
Both sides have a slightly convex grind, the right one more than the left. Just like a Sab. Remarkably thin behind the edge.

 

[Danzo]

Spine goes from 3.5mm to 0.7. Strong distal taper, attenuated by a relative thickening at the last centimetres from the tip. It doesn't end with a flimsy tip.
Both sides have a slightly convex grind, the right one more than the left. Just like a Sab. Remarkably thin behind the edge.

nice, have you had to make any sort of modifications to the bolster? grinding it at an angle like some sabs?

 

[Benuser]

nice, have you had to make any sort of modifications to the bolster? grinding it at an angle like some sabs?

No, no need for it. The fingerguard comes out of the factory slightly above the edge. All I do so far is ignoring the first centimetre of the edge when sharpening. Some day it will be necessary to reduce the fingerguard. It ends very thin, as two joining arcs. It won't require more than a few strokes with a nail file.
There’s no need to cut it away as with some Sabs. With this model, it would feel to me as an unnecessary defiguration.

 

[Benuser]

As you see, with next serious sharpening — in half a year or so — a little correction may be considered. Not of the fingerguard. Haven't noticed accordeoning so far.

 

[Benuser]

It's no Nogent.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

My Herder 1910 came in today. This is a very nice blade. Smaller & lighter than I imagined.
Blade little over 6" or 154mm.

Thinnest grind I've ever seen on a German knife. Of coarse this is first semi custom EU
I've bought. Restored couple older carbon German knives.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

Robert Herder 1922 23cm chef's, C75W, 60Rc. Has kept the original profile of those days, which was very similar to the French one. Tip even lower than with modern Sabs. View attachment 142445

That is a very very nice knife. Bought one after advice from you. If I could only keep one knife. It would be this one

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Yes these Robert Herder knives are artisan made. Would imagine the 1922 with French style distal taper is excellent kitchen knife

 

[Benuser]

Yes these Robert Herder knives are artisan made. Would imagine the 1922 with French style distal taper is excellent kitchen knife

The distal taper isn't as extreme as with the French blades of that time. With the Herder 1922 Chef's, not with the Tranchelard, there's a relative thickening at the tip after complaints by professional users, as a Herder employee reported in Messerforum.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

What broken tips? Used thin tip knives at work
Just don't drop them. Also after many sharpenings tip wears away faster. It's a trade off.

 

[deskjockey]

Where and how do you find those Robert Herder knives? That 23cm version sure looks nice. eBay for me was a total bust, at least on the English/USA side.

 

[Benuser]

Where and how do you find those Robert Herder knives? That 23cm version sure looks nice. eBay for me was a total bust, at least on the English/USA side.

Out of stock. Not sure if they will restart production. Herder had a serious problem with schooling new staff. New K-series involve less labour. Stamped blades, simpler handle.

 

[Benuser]

What broken tips? Used thin tip knives at work
Just don't drop them. Also after many sharpenings tip wears away faster. It's a trade off.

With vintage Sabs, the slightest impact results in damage. Whether one cares or not is another question. I want a tip to form a sharp angle, others can live with a rounded one.

 

[deskjockey]

Out of stock. Not sure if they will restart production. Herder had a serious problem with schooling new staff. New K-series involve less labour. Stamped blades, simpler handle.

I have run into this with other knives and scissors in Solingen. When I was in Germany, I always thought the apprenticeship program through the schools was awesome! So many great brands were sent to Asia to produce cheap crap that lost the heritage and squandered the "brand name".

 

[Benuser]

I have run into this with other knives and scissors in Solingen. When I was in Germany, I always thought the apprenticeship program through the schools was awesome! So many great brands were sent to Asia to produce cheap crap that lost the heritage and squandered the "brand name".

It's a shame, but the school program for cutlery has been discontinued in the Land of North Rhine-Westphalia.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

One was on sale with other knives on BST a while back. Had been familiar with the name from past threads here. Got interested when saw Benuser's 1910 started reading about these knives good thing had English translation option. I had a hard time finding a 1910 contacted the folks that produced them
They gave me a site that had one for sale.

 

[McMan]

pricey.
but...
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=104748

 

[deskjockey]

Trying to get registered on the Messer Forum where it looks like they have a strong following for Robert Herder 1922 knives, I keep getting hung up on what I think is a Captcha thing with this phrase "Viele wer verderben den Brei?"

I take it as "too many cooks spoil the broth" but, I'm obviously missing something. Or if someone in the EU has a good source for a knife similar to the one shown in this thread, I'd appreciate a link to it. ~30 years ago, my German was OK but, that was then and this is now ...

I did enjoy a good thread on the Robert Herder 1922 history and the story behind the demise of this line of knives when the last master knifemaker retired and didn't have an apprentice to follow him.

 

[Benuser]

Quite some members left Messerforum.net and have started
https://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/I wasn't active any longer at the time it occurred.
I must admit I only visit Messerforum for its archive, and only through Google's 'site:'-function.

 

[ant_topps]

Picked up this Hoehler (S. Af. Maker) from EE a few months ago.
Really digging the knife. Beautiful f/f.
I tried a Kramer euroline for the first time and didn't mind the profile (though found the knife handle-heavy).
View attachment 142430

Glad you're enjoying it. David Hoehler is in the same knifemaking club as me. We have some great talent here on the East Coast of SA. Daniel from BG/EE travels out to SA twice a year and picks up knives from a number of makers.