Custom Butcher's knife for a friend

[billyO]

Hello all. I hope everyone is staying healthy and happy these days.
My sister asked me to make a knife for a chef friend of hers who donated time and food for a dog rescue she volunteers at. In answer to the question of what size/style he wants, his response was: A small butcher's knife (santoku-ish shaped) to break up turkeys. 5 1/2" blade length, 5 cm high at the heel, 5mm thick at the spine, square shaped WA handle 12 cm long. (Not sure why he mixed metric and english units, but I'm adaptable....)

Here it is forged and rough profile (I haven't decided if I'm going go with a full tang or not). The spine is currently just over 5mm now.

My question is, how thin should I taper the spine at the tip? I was thinking ~ 3mm (0.125") but that still seems to thick to me. I know it needs to be thick enough to pop joints open, so what would y'all recommend?
Thanks in advance.

 

[esoo]

I think this is for a good cause

I'm no knife maker, but you need to clarify break up turkeys. Are they going through bones or just through joints? As those are different weights and different grinds.

 

[Bensbites]

I have looked at various honesuki and butcher knives 3-5 mm at the spine is right, 10-15 degrees per side with a really thick grind.

 

[billyO]

Are they going through bones or just through joints?

Good morning, esoo. I'm waiting for an answer from the chef himself, but from my recollection of my conversation with him back in December was it's for both, which is why he wants the santoku point instead of a cleaver. I do remember him saying that he's never seen a knife with the shape/weight/grind geometry that he's looking for.

 

[billyO]

Well, I got an answer, sort of... "I want it thick, so I'll leave it up to you to decide where to start tapering."
So, should I keep the whole spine at 5mm or taper it to ~3mm at the tip?
Also, should I keep a full tang to help with the balance and not worry about the overall weight?
I'm used to making thin slicers, so this is completely out of the box for me.
Thank you.

 

[kbright]

That handle tang is longer than the blade, but this is not a big knife. I would personally want the balance forward, blade heavy. The customer wants a "small butcher knife", so a thin tip may not be needed.

 

[billyO]

That handle tang is longer than the blade,

Yeah, I probably should have mentioned that the tang is a lot longer than it needs to be right now. I'm keeping it that way for a bit extra to hang onto while grinding. Sorry about that.

 

[kbright]

So what are you thinking about for handle material? The 120mm long tang might look good with some pretty material. I would go full tang, tapered tang. Drill holes in the tang to drop some butt weight. I've made alot of hunters/skinners. When I have a thick spine like this, I'm tempted to add some file work or engraving, but that's usually not put on chefs knives, which are usually thinner.

 

[billyO]

So what are you thinking about for handle material?

Hi, kbright. It's going to be K&G stabilized maple from my stock. I'm not sure if I'm going to use a curly or spalted piece or not, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to go with burl. The end user is into 'artsy' stuff and said he liked a blue dyed piece I showed him, but I'm going to wait until the blade is finished and how the pattern comes out before I decide.
(PS - You may have seen my thread on Bladeforums about this, too....)

 

[kbright]

Yeah, I'm a Bladeforums regular. Trying to bring more knifemaking topics to this forum. Also trying to get my messages score higher so I can offer my work here.

Is your forged blade a damascus blend or sandwich cladding? Will you etch it?

 

[kbright]

I see you, Weo.

 

[billyO]

Trying to bring more knifemaking topics to this forum.

Me too. And because I focus on kitchen knives, I thought this might be another resource for information for questions like this....

Is your forged blade a damascus blend or sandwich cladding? Will you etch it?

Well...both. It's basically a san-mai spine on top of a low layer edge. I'm hoping that when I etch it it will give the appearance of cloudy skies over a waterfall pouring out of the handle.

 

[kbright]

I can't tell from the photo if this has an integral bolster? Are you going to have a plunge line?

 

[daveb]

+1 on making resulting knife blade heavy. When using a kitchen knife for any length of time, being balanced a little blade forward is a good thing. A balance point close to the Makers Mark typically works well. Would also suggest for this application that you not have as much distal taper as a "chef knife" would have. Invariably the tip will be torqued to separate pieces of "stuff". Don't want the tip to be separated....

Noted your line:

Also trying to get my messages score higher so I can offer my work here.

Pls understand the forum rules about promotion and differences between vendors and members before offering anything here.

 

[billyO]

I can't tell from the photo if this has an integral bolster?

Not really, but kinda. Because he requested a 5mm spine, I thought that might be a bit thick for the tang, so there is a step there. but I wouldn't call it a bolster.

Are you going to have a plunge line?

I wasn't planning on it, but I hadn't thought about it much, because I normally don't do them.

Invariably the tip will be torqued to separate pieces of "stuff". Don't want the tip to be separated....

That's why I was thinking about tapering to only about 3mm at the tip. Do you think that's too thin?

 

[kbright]

Noted your line:
Pls understand the forum rules about promotion and differences between vendors and members before offering anything here.

Sorry @daveb If I violated the rules. I am not promoting or making any offers yet. Had hoped to use the Hobbiest Sales forum after I have the required minimum 50 message posts. If that's inappropriate, I'll leave.

 

[billyO]

Good afternoon all! I hope everyone is staying safe.
Here's the blade ready for HT, and after a quick dunk in the ferric acid.

The tang needs to be cut down ~4-5cm. It's currently the total length of the handle.

+1 on making resulting knife blade heavy.

Right now the balance point is in the middle of the 2 spots on the blade. Removing more of the tang is going to move it forward, but the handle material will move it back again. Do you think there's a risk of making this too blade forward if I narrow the tang a little or should I keep the tang this wide to keep the balance point as close as to where it is now or even closer to the handle?

 

[kbright]

I love the pattern!

 

[kbright]

Regarding weight balance, I will sometimes tape some scrap scales to the tang to judge total weight and balance.

 

[billyO]

Well here it is after final grinding and etching. The pattern isn't quite what I was looking for, but I think I learned what to do differently next time.

Hopefully I'll get the handle done this weekend.

 

[tostadas]

Even if it's not exactly as you imagined it, I still think its beautiful!

 

[billyO]

Thanks, tostadas.

 

[billyO]

Hello all. Well, here's what the final product turned out to look like (no final edge yet). I lost a bit more of the clouds during final grinding and hand sanding, which bums me out, but I think (hope?) I learned what to do on the next one.

I used 2 pieces of 1080 for the spine portion of billet

and next time I'll only use one, which will give me another layer of 15N20 on either side to lose through forging and grinding, which should leave more clouds.
Any comments'critiques are welcome.

 

[billyO]

Hello all. I'd like some advice from the professional chef's out there. I'm afraid I made the blade a little too thin at the edge, so I did a bit of testing today, chopping up a whole chicken and abusing the blade a little (I think) by chopping through the thigh bones, the breasts, and torquing the blade on the cutting board a little bit while popping the joints open with the tip. The edge seemed to hold up pretty well, was still shaving hairs off my arm after cleaning, but there are 2 spots where the edge deflected a little as shown in the pics. The yellow circle is the same spot on opposite sides of the blade.

It's my understanding that this is what butchers use a steel for, but are deflections like this the acceptable norm when chopping through bones? Should I send this off for him to use? My plan, if I do, is to ask him to let me know if he wants a heavier blade edge and I will make him another one. This is a gift, so he's not paying me for it, but I don't want to send off something that isn't suited for it's purpose.
Thanks.

 

[mise_en_place]

I can't tell from the pictures if a honing rod would realign your knife. If it's hard steel on the edge (60HRC and more), chances are a typical steel won't do anything to help this.

If your butcher friend is located in a Western country or OZ/NZ, chances are he shouldn't be chopping through bones as much as joints. If your knife chipped after cutting through the keel of a chicken, I'd say it's too delicate to be used for butchery.

All that being said, it seems you made this knife out of simple carbon steels, relatively speaking. Depending on your friend, some very light chipping and edge rolling may be perfectly acceptable because they can fix the edge with a quick session on sharpening stones. If your friend doesn't know how to sharpen knives or just uses a steel at work, then he should learn to sharpen, because the knife won't be so useful.

 

[billyO]

Thanksfor the reply mise_en_place. I don't have a hardness tester, but it should be right around 60HRC based on my heat treatment regime.

 

[Tim Rowland]

I think the pattern came out nice even if you didn't get the clouds as you were wanting. Still a visually striking piece.
Did you happen to take any photos of the spine to show the amount of distal taper you ended up with?
As for the edge deformation if it is around the 59-60rc I think he will be fine with a butchers steel.

 

[ian]

My plan, if I do, is to ask him to let me know if he wants a heavier blade edge and I will make him another one.

Why wouldn’t you grind down this one a little more to thicken the edge, instead of making a new one?

 

[billyO]

Thanks, Tim. Unfortunately, I don't have a spine picture, but IIRC it was right at 5mm at the handle and tapered to ~2mm where the 'waterline' meets the spine at the tip (I hope that makes sense).

 

[billyO]

Why wouldn’t you grind down this one a little more to thicken the edge, instead of making a new one?

Good morning, Ian. 2 reasons: (1) I think it would shorten the overall height of the knife too much, and (2) then I get another shot at the pattern I was going for, more clouds and doing a better job forging the choil so that I won't have to grind away as much of the waterfall. (and maybe even forge in an integral bolster to enhance the waterfall effect....)