Custom makers, deposits and the fallout from the PR (!!) fiasco

[chinacats]

Chinacats that goes both ways... maybe if the buyer can't afford the loss he shouldn't be buying the knife.

This has nothing to do with whether someone can afford a knife...this is about sellers ripping off buyers, plain and simple. Again, I wound up giving a three year loan with no interest to this maker and have nothing to show for it...other than my initial deposit back (after begging in a post in his subforum!). A headache, no interest on my money he held, and no product to show for it...just disappointment, frustration and anger. Screw the piddly interest, but I got ******* nothing out of this deal but a headache. Perhaps you'd feel different if you were one of the people that got ******?

My only consolation was that my deposit was for a rather cheap carbon fork as opposed to a set of knives, etc...that and finally just getting my ******* money back.

 

[brainsausage]

If he can resell a custom item.

Sorry but people got bent out of shape (and rightly so) because some makers hold deposits for years without any clear indication of when delivery is... But you think it is acceptable for a maker to carry his loss indefinitely on the hope of the sale of a commissioned piece of work.

Think about it, would you be happy to put in a days work only to have your boss say "oh no, no pay for today, the client decided he didn't want it. But don't worry I'll pay you when someone picks it up".

But that's simply not the case here. Any maker of any re-known- which is who we're discussing here- can very easily sell said items through this or other forums. Nevermind social media platforms. The culture is hungry for custom work. Which is why we're having this conversation in the first place.

 

[malexthekid]

This has nothing to do with whether someone can afford a knife...this is about sellers ripping off buyers, plain and simple. Again, I wound up giving a three year loan with no interest to this maker and have nothing to show for it...other than my initial deposit back. A headache, no interest on my money he held, and no product to show for it...just disappointment, frustration and anger. Screw the piddly interest, but I got ******* nothing out of this deal but a headache. Perhaps you'd feel different if you were one of the people that got ******?

We aren't talking about a specific maker and i totally agree with you...

As I said at joining a waitlist i believe no deposit or a minuscule token one is the only thing acceptable. But once work commences I can't disagree with a maker if they want partial payment at that point to cover some costs.

 

[chinacats]

We aren't talking about a specific maker and i totally agree with you...

As I said at joining a waitlist i believe no deposit or a minuscule token one is the only thing acceptable. But once work commences I can't disagree with a maker if they want partial payment at that point to cover some costs.

Well, I am talking about a specific example and in my case (as in others recently brought up) there was never any work done other than lip service. Again, I don't have a problem with a small deposit (50% is excessive) but I'm not giving someone money to live on while they lead me on about how many problems they have in their life and give excuse one after the other about why they haven't done what they said they would do.

I'll pay for work, I expect good work but most importantly I expect honesty.

 

[Anton]

And all I was trying to point out is there are two sides to this and we aren't talking about big corporations. Heck most of these guys give lifetime warranties and maintenance along with the knife

Sorry, but this is is horses dung

 

[brainsausage]

Well, I am talking about a specific example and in my case (as in others recently brought up) there was never any work done other than lip service.

I think it's probably best to keep this discussion in generalities, as opposed to specific individuals.

 

[malexthekid]

But that's simply not the case here. Any maker of any re-known- which is who we're discussing here- can very easily sell said items through this or other forums. Nevermind social media platforms. The culture is hungry for custom work.

So you say... yet i can point to many instances where knives that people rave about take over a month to sell by these makers you talk about, probably because of their high price.

I have worked in a consulting industry where one in every 3 of my jobs i had issue with people wanting to pay me because they didn't like the answers i gave to their problems.

Nothing wrong with my work, it just wasn't what they wanted to hear, so i can understand the opposite side of the argument about recovering costs.

Again I am only talking about covering costs once, or just before, work commences. Not paying out 6+ months before they even think of starting work.

 

[chinacats]

I think it's probably best to keep this discussion in generalities, as opposed to specific individuals.

word...

 

[brainsausage]

So you say... yet i can point to many instances where knives that people rave about take over a month to sell by these makers you talk about, probably because of their high price.

I have worked in a consulting industry where one in every 3 of my jobs i had issue with people wanting to pay me because they didn't like the answers i gave to their problems.

Nothing wrong with my work, it just wasn't what they wanted to hear, so i can understand the opposite side of the argument about recovering costs.

Again I am only talking about covering costs once, or just before, work commences. Not paying out 6+ months before they even think of starting work.

You're talking about a much more specialized service, with a very concentrated end buyer. You can't just hop on FB and try to sell a focused consultation based on an very specific series of circumstances.

 

[malexthekid]

word...

So we actually agree... at least on a fundamental level.

 

[daveb]

I think it's probably best to keep this discussion in generalities, as opposed to specific individuals.

+1

If this turns into another pissing contest it will get shut down - something I / we really don't like to do.

Luv ya Jim..

 

[malexthekid]

Sorry, but this is is horses dung

How is that BS?

These guys don't have the capital to carry losses like a big corporation, they also tend to offer better warranties than them (mostly because their QA is a lot higher due to lower volumes etc.)

It seems lots are jumping down my throat without actually bothering to read what I am writing.

Paying a significant deposit upfront on joining a waitlist isn't on in my books, and i would think very hard about going with a maker that wants that.

However paying of a deposit, or partial payment, on commencement of work to cover materials, overheads etc. is a fair proposition, and of course should coincide with a reasonably accurate delivery timeframe.

 

[MAS4T0]

But that's simply not the case here. Any maker of any re-known- which is who we're discussing here- can very easily sell said items through this or other forums. Nevermind social media platforms. The culture is hungry for custom work. Which is why we're having this conversation in the first place.

I'm not sure that's an accurate assessment.

I've been in close contact with quite a few very well renowned makers who have told me that they do struggle to sell custom work if the buyer doesn't follow through (at least without discounting it). I think it's reasonable to take a deposit and deduct the amount lost for the smith if he has to resell the knife at a lower price.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

But that's simply not the case here. Any maker of any re-known- which is who we're discussing here- can very easily sell said items through this or other forums. Nevermind social media platforms. The culture is hungry for custom work. Which is why we're having this conversation in the first place.

Yes, the knife can be sold, but usually not at the original price. Consider a custom home. If I can afford a custom built home, why should I buy one that has been built to someone else's specification instead of having one built to my liking? Only if there is sufficient motivation, usually in terms of a reduced price.

 

[brainsausage]

Yes, the knife can be sold, but usually not at the original price. Consider a custom home. If I can afford a custom built home, why should I buy one that has been built to someone else's specification instead of having one built to my liking? Only if there is sufficient motivation, usually in terms of a reduced price.

Fair enough. But I think that depends, in both circumstances, the level of customization.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

Fair enough. But I think that depends, in both circumstances, the level of customization.

Then would you think it's fair for the smith to require a deposit that represents the anticipated loss if the knife has to be sold on the open market?

 

[brainsausage]

Then would you think it's fair for the smith to require a deposit that represents the anticipated loss if the knife has to be sold on the open market?

If it's something approaching a strictly artistic/conversation piece and isn't as much oriented towards daily use- yes. Much like that ivory handled curiosity that just popped up on the new knife thread.

 

[gic]

But that is the point of getting a big deposit when one is 4 months away, prior to that time it doesn't seem to me that the maker has really invested any time in materials probably and once ones name has risen that high on the maker's list, paying for a substantial portion of the knife is not unreasonable - provided the maker knows that if the four months becomes 6, they will have to refund the money...

 

[malexthekid]

But that is the point of getting a big deposit when one is 4 months away, prior to that time it doesn't seem to me that the maker hasn't really invested any time in materials probably and once ones name has risen that high on the maker's list, paying for a substantial portion of the knife is not unreasonable - provided the maker knows that if the four months becomes 6, they will have to refund the money...

Well that is what I was saying but it seemed it wasn't acceptable...

Sorry should just leave this thread be my opinion doesn't seem valid here.

 

[brainsausage]

Well that is what I was saying but it seemed it wasn't acceptable...

Sorry should just leave this thread be my opinion doesn't seem valid here.

It is valid. This is all about opinions and debating. I wouldn't take it personal my friend.

 

[aboynamedsuita]

Short answer… it depends

With Watanabe as an example, you can go back and forth with correspondence and don't pay (100%) until he begins, and the knife is usually done in a couple months. If using PayPal (does anyone even use money orders or bank transfers?) it's no worries for time. That said, I'm not sure if I'd consider my Watanabe knives to be "truly" custom in the same sense as dealing with a custom maker.

I think just about anyone needs to allow some time/resources for preliminary inquires (eg marketing and outreach) or have such info available (online for example) if answering common questions (approx cost per unit of length, steel type; up-charges for premium/rare handle materials, etc.) are becoming repetitive or burdensome. Once a potential client has the info and is looking to discuss specifics I think it's fair for a maker to request a nominal deposit… the amount of which should ultimately depend on the level of engagement provided to the client pending their "actual" spot on the list and overall timeframe. Once things are picking up and work is commencing, requiring additional payment is not unreasonable especially if a client wants something that'd be difficult to sell (eg gaudy/tacky handle, odd profile/size, expensive upgrades) to protect the maker from loss if the client falls of the face of the earth (did this happen with a painting?). There are a lot of dynamics and different scenarios so it follows that there'll be different policies depending on the maker.

 

[toddnmd]

Well that is what I was saying but it seemed it wasn't acceptable...

Sorry should just leave this thread be my opinion doesn't seem valid here.

Personally, I disagree with a lot of what you have expressed here. But that doesn't mean I find it unacceptable or invalid--feel free to express your opinion--that's what we're all doing.

 

[Ruso]

Names should not be kept secret. Reputation is THEE best marketing tool for small (or big) makers. If people do not share their bad experiences (along with good ones) with names attached what is the point? Once the maker(s) see that their reputation is under harm, they might re-think few things. Otherwise there is no incentive. Word of mouth can be quite a powerful tool.

Perusing legal routes won't be easy, will take very long time, can be costly, and might yield zero net results.

 

[brainsausage]

Names should not be kept secret. Reputation is THEE best marketing tool for small (or big) makers. If people do not share their bad experiences (along with good ones) with names attached what is the point? Once the maker(s) see that their reputation is under harm, they might re-think few things. Otherwise there is no incentive. Word of mouth can be quite a powerful tool.

Perusing legal routes won't be easy, will take very long time, can be costly, and might yield zero net results.

I totally agree with you. But I don't feel that this a thread built to call out people. More to air grievances, and express a more ideal experience when commissioning a custom piece.

 

[gic]

But it really seems that for a custom maker to expect a serious amount of money more than 6 months before the knife is delivered makes all the risk be on the shoulders of the buyer - or am I missing something??

 

[brainsausage]

But it really seems that for a custom maker to expect a serious amount of money more than 6 months before the knife is delivered makes all the risk be on the shoulders of the buyer - or am I missing something??

Nope. You're completely on point IMO.

 

[malexthekid]

Nope. You're completely on point IMO.

However no deposit puts all the risk on their shoulder. So the happy medium should be where it is.

As for what a happy medium is, that is the question... partial payment up front... or full payment at the end but you are paying a premium for their risk... Heaps of ways to do it but we really should be looking for that middle ground so the risk is shared.

 

[Matus]

I am just wondering - what risks does the maker has apart from the buyer ordering something completely weird (like double edged gyuto with pink stars on green handle) that would be hard to sell if the orderer is cancelled too late?

 

[zetieum]

Names should not be kept secret. Reputation is THEE best marketing tool for small (or big) makers. If people do not share their bad experiences (along with good ones) with names attached what is the point? Once the maker(s) see that their reputation is under harm, they might re-think few things. Otherwise there is no incentive. Word of mouth can be quite a powerful tool.

Perusing legal routes won't be easy, will take very long time, can be costly, and might yield zero net results.

lus1:

 

[malexthekid]

The risk that the knife can't be sold for full price, which is quite common.