Customers don't know what they want

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Very good thread, interesting points all.

I've been thinking for awhile now that the custom knife industry is ready for advances in blade materials. Not that I want to work in anything other than steel, but that may be the future... I don't think ceramics, carbides, alloys like Tolonite and Stellite hold answers right now, but there are interesting things like age hardening non-ferric super-alloys (GNiCr40Al4 for instance, I have a chunk to play with) that may offer substantial improvements in important areas.

There are always aspects at odds with any blade material. Ceramic is super hard and holds an edge forever, like tungsten carbide, but is very hard to sharpen for the average person and brittle besides. In sporting knives, Talonite and Stellite are super tough and can be bent practically in a circle without cracking, but just don't hold an edge well enough. Some of the super steel alloys out there like CPM 3V and A11 are incredible for steels in terms of wear resistance and even toughness, but can tarnish. Add enough chromium and some nickel to make it stainless, and you've lost a lot of toughness and may get microchipping at the edge.

Most of us knifemakers have learned or are learning to successfully walk the line between the traits we want in the steels we use... but that's just like asking Henry Ford for a faster horse. We need to experience a paradigm shift for a true innovation in hand cutlery.

I'm happy to work with steels, indeed most of my shop (a significant investment, and years of my life to build) is equipped to deal with steel alloys. Maybe the next wave in blade materials will require tooling of a different type altogether, and maybe be cost-prohibitive.

I'll probably be a toothless old anachronism in a brave new world of zircon-encrusted miracle blades, still crying about carbon steels and forcing people to admire my neglected powerhammer. I've always admired the old way of doing things.

Obviously, the manufacture and use of high quality cutlery are subtle arts- subtle enough that it can take a lifetime of work and learning to achieve the results even of contemporary masters. Sure, in the information age we benefit from a wealth of shared "trade secrets," but putting them to practice is where the rubber hits the road. These things don't instantly come with having read internet text, or even being shown how by a master in person. To paraphrase a maker on another forum, "we all must toil alone in our caves of steel."

So, to make a blade that truly shines in its function and aesthetics is what I feel takes precedence. When a maker feels they can do this reliably, then perhaps it's time to try innovating. It seems that all too often people become instant experts after dabbling in a given field, then go on to shallow and ineffective efforts at innovation. This combined with effective hype or marketing, can make a quick bundle for a huckster.

It's a paradox that persons who are most intimately connected to their own arts are often so introspective or not naturally gregarious that they lead lives of relative obscurity and only ever attain modest means...
 
Imagine science giving us a knife with an invisible "force field" blade of some type, capable of separating things at their atomic bonds.

Actually, an invisible blade sounds scary. Perhaps we need a translucent generated force blade that cuts only at the edge. The blade could feel solid on the sides, so for instance one could still use a claw type grip to slice.
 
Maybe the blade could be programmed for safety to be unable to cut human or living meat.

Believe me, rather I'd edit additions into my previous posts, but my slow browser speed precludes this.
 
The brilliance of Steve Jobs and other entrepreneurs is that they developed products that the general market didn't know it wanted. Typically the product provides an ease of access not seen before. The Zip Drive, allowed for cheap, easy and relatively large amounts of data storage. The Palm Pilot was the first electronic organizer, that was easy to use. The I-Pod made mp3 players main stream.

Bob Kramer has made high end kitchen knives accessible to pro cooks and foodies. Say what you will about the design but it is versatile and adaptable to a variety of cutting styles, and very easy to sharpen. The looks of a Kramer knife are unique, which helps with the marketing.

The word has gotten out about Japanese cutlery. According to the NY Times, the U.S.A. is now the leading importer of Japanese knives.

A common thread on the forum is that the general public is sheep like in its behavior in regards to kitchen cutlery. But with only a little education they will see the light. How many of us have handed over one of our freshly sharpened knives to a friend or relative. When they give the knife back, instead of being impressed, they are leery of it?

How many of the people we talk to about knives, are quickly turned off, when the upkeep of carbon is mentioned or worse yet sharpening? What do all the celebrity experts advise? Send your knives out, its too easy to screw up your knives.

People are willing to listen to the experts in their respective field. In our case it is chefs and pro cooks. If the pros aren't using them, then why should the general public?

Jay
 
Bob Kramer has made high end kitchen knives accessible to pro cooks and foodies. Say what you will about the design but it is versatile and adaptable to a variety of cutting styles, and very easy to sharpen. The looks of a Kramer knife are unique, which helps with the marketing.


A common thread on the forum is that the general public is sheep like in its behavior in regards to kitchen cutlery. But with only a little education they will see the light. How many of us have handed over one of our freshly sharpened knives to a friend or relative. When they give the knife back, instead of being impressed, they are leery of it?

Jay

bob krammer is more marketing then jsutb shear fact that his knives are good (and they are fromm what i have been told) and in truth he has more made his knives less accessible to pro cooks (most cooks could not pay for such blades )

so far as sheeple as long as they are getting the proper info then im all good with it but remember that more times then not its marketting salemenship (blacksmiths with "edge packing the steel to make it better and others that claim that it takes a week to HT a blade (that is done mearly with torch and there eyes)
 
I'm surprised when people take a dig at multiple quenched heat treatments for 52100. In the 1950's there was a lot of research done on multiple quenching, conditioning quenching, prequenching of steels, and the most used steel for the testing was 52100. It has been proven that it is very benificial to do multiple quenches. Nothing refines the grain of a steel faster than multiple quenches. The best structure to quench from is martensite, not pearlite or ferrite or bainite or any other structure. I pearsonally have read a dozen or more studies on the subject by renowned metalurgists.

I pearsonally watched Bill Burke, at the Boise show, do what they called the knife challenge. It was a cutting demonstration by maybe 20 knife makers who most made knives specifically for the challenge. By far the most impressive cutting came from Bill Burke, who went to his table and picked up his biggest kitchen knife which was made from multiple quenched, hand forged, torch heat treated by eye 52100, and without hesitation cut through the course with greater ease than anyone else. One of the tests was to sharpen a 1" hard wood dowel like a tent stake, and Bill did it with one stroke with one of the thinnest knives I have ever seen, most impressive!

I highly recommend that knife makers who think that what Bill does is a bunch of marketing hipe, make some knives, go to Bill's house and cut along side him, and see what it is that makes his knives so valuable.

Don't think that by putting someone else down that you are raising yourself up.

Hoss
 
One of the tests was to sharpen a 1" hard wood dowel like a tent stake

Why is it important that a kitchen knife can cut wood?

I fail to see any relevance so I am surprised every time these sort of tests are mentioned in regards to kitchen knives..

Lars
 
It is not important that it cut a wooden dowel, it is impressive that it can do it with out damaging the edge.

Bill was not trying to prove anything. They asked him to do the challenge, and he did it with out hesitation, with a knife that was not made for the challenge, and did it better than all of the others that made a knife specifically for the challenge.

Again, please understand that it was most impressive.

Hoss
 
Why is it important that a kitchen knife can cut wood?

I fail to see any relevance so I am surprised every time these sort of tests are mentioned in regards to kitchen knives..

Lars

While that wasn't the point he was making, it is incredibly important...what's your cutting board made out of? Not tomatoes.
 
Thanks for educating me on the subject..

I was not trying to belittle anyone - just curious.

Lars
 
this was not to bill
my thing with the steps is that only one can be done per day and thats what makes it supper bedderer :)
and was more along the lines as edge packing and other myths
how bout nice terms like cryo quenching or ice hardened there is alot of marketing out there to sell everything
 
Thank you Butch,

I get what you are saying.

Hoss
 
devin i might be a hair touchy on this as i just got back form the NYCKS and well there was a few ppl that well had great marketing ( i need that barf smilly)and the more it gets said the more sheeple believe it
 
Butch ,

I love your work.

I also get tired of people that market their knives without knowing what they are talking about.

Love and respect

Hoss
 
And I appreciate the fact that Butch, Devin, Pierre, Bill, Del, etc. are passionate about making kitchen knives that can and will be used by people who really need them, and rely on the merits of their work to speak for them, and not some BS marketing machine. And it's obvious you guys have helped spark the interest in others, such as Dave M, Marko, Mario, etc. I don't think those guys are entering the world of knifemaking because of Bob Kramer, but because they have seen what you guys pour into your work and it inspired them to learn.
 
Speaking as a sheep:

Looking at getting some serious tools for the kitchen, and was in a "real" knife store this weekend. Ended up paying more for a "factory" knife than a custom knife that was displayed under lock and key at the store. Why? The salesperson didn't want to let me look at the custom pieces--"we can let you play with those." My "play" with the knives was to hold the knife, see how it felt in my hand, and gently touch it to a cutting board they provided. No slashing it about, no opening beer cans, no threatening pets and small children. You can bet your sweet bippie that had I known more about the custom piece it would have been preferable if it had felt good--my dad had a custom hunting knife, and I loved it. But I'm not going to buy a tool like that without handling it first. I quite like the knife I bought, and it has some characteristics I've wanted to try--plus it felt really, really good in my hand, and the custom knife was an unknown that would require a hassle with the clerk just to look at it.

And yes, I'm one of the sheep who bought a Zwilling Kramer (no, not that butt-ugly damascus.) The only stores nearby are the malls, so I could order the Kramer, have it come to my door, and try out 52100 with no risk--if I hated it, I could send it back. And I found that I really like 52100. Will I buy more of the Kramers? Unlikely. But it's been a good way for me to learn about the care and feeding of carbon steel and wood handles.

I'm a customer that doesn't know exactly what I want, but until I look and try things I can't make an educated decision. The marketing is fluff and I ignore it. But if you have your knife for sale in a store and I can't look at it, I won't buy it.
 
That sales person is an idiot. What did they expect you to do with it, stab them?
 
That sales person is an idiot. What did they expect you to do with it, stab them?
Nah. Fingerprints. Jon follows me around the store with a cloth at the ready, j/k. Seriously, that's unfortunate. I wonder what the custom maker would have thought of the lost sale. You should go to JKI. He has a bunch of testers and a butcher block to try out on the spot, too.
 
Why is it important that a kitchen knife can cut wood?

I fail to see any relevance so I am surprised every time these sort of tests are mentioned in regards to kitchen knives..

Lars

It isn't important that it cuts wood, it is important that even though it did the blade was not damaged. No one in this forum (I hope) will intentionally take a fine knife and do that type of cutting but knowing that it can and not be damaged is a very good way of knowing you have a quality blade in your hand.
 
I'm annoyed by marketing that is bandied about as technology and knowledge.

-AJ
 
Thanks for educating me on the subject..

I was not trying to belittle anyone - just curious.

Lars

Me neither. I just may have been too concise because I was typing on my phone, hope I didn't come off belittling either.




It's important to remember that while you can make a lot of money hiding behind cool marketing without having substance, great products also gather dust without cool marketing.
 
...great products also gather dust without cool marketing.
I knew a guy that helped invent an excellent detergent. The company he worked for went under. They couldn't sell it because it did not make bubbles and that is what people want their soap to make. Guess what everyone who uses high efficiency washers puts in them? Some marketing might have done them some good...
 
I'm surprised when people take a dig at multiple quenched heat treatments for 52100. In the 1950's there was a lot of research done on multiple quenching, conditioning quenching, prequenching of steels, and the most used steel for the testing was 52100. It has been proven that it is very benificial to do multiple quenches. Nothing refines the grain of a steel faster than multiple quenches. The best structure to quench from is martensite, not pearlite or ferrite or bainite or any other structure. I pearsonally have read a dozen or more studies on the subject by renowned metalurgists.

I pearsonally watched Bill Burke, at the Boise show, do what they called the knife challenge. It was a cutting demonstration by maybe 20 knife makers who most made knives specifically for the challenge. By far the most impressive cutting came from Bill Burke, who went to his table and picked up his biggest kitchen knife which was made from multiple quenched, hand forged, torch heat treated by eye 52100, and without hesitation cut through the course with greater ease than anyone else. One of the tests was to sharpen a 1" hard wood dowel like a tent stake, and Bill did it with one stroke with one of the thinnest knives I have ever seen, most impressive!

I highly recommend that knife makers who think that what Bill does is a bunch of marketing hipe, make some knives, go to Bill's house and cut along side him, and see what it is that makes his knives so valuable.

Don't think that by putting someone else down that you are raising yourself up.

Hoss
Thanks for this. I've often wondered if Bill's work really lived up to the reputation he seems to get around here. I actually can't remember anyone commenting on thier experience with a Burke other than Colin.
 
And yes, I'm one of the sheep who bought a Zwilling Kramer (no, not that butt-ugly damascus.) The only stores nearby are the malls, so I could order the Kramer, have it come to my door, and try out 52100 with no risk--if I hated it, I could send it back. And I found that I really like 52100. Will I buy more of the Kramers? Unlikely. But it's been a good way for me to learn about the care and feeding of carbon steel and wood handles.

You're not a sheep for buying the Zwilling Kramer. You can just as easily be a sheep for automatically assuming the knife sucks and not giving it a fair shake, as you can for buying something that has an advertising budget.
 
Thanks for this. I've often wondered if Bill's work really lived up to the reputation he seems to get around here. I actually can't remember anyone commenting on thier experience with a Burke other than Colin.

Maybe I should do a passaround for you guys?
 
Bill, i think it is awesome that you stepped up and put a kitchen knife against all the comp knives! I would have LOVED to see that!
 
Maybe I should do a passaround for you guys?

Yes please! Colin's suji is still one of my favorite knives. I've never had any real interest in a custom from most makers, but you have always been the exception, and I would love to try something out first.

Reminds me of an old post at KF where I had a list of things I needed to in order to become best friends with Bill Burke so that he would make me a knife for free :)
 
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