Cutting Board Shenanigans

[-Kiku-]

Hi, everyone. Cutlery noob here. I've been using plastic cutting boards with my cheap German/Chinese stainless steel knives. But now that I just ordered a few Japanese kitchen knives, I thought I'd also upgrade my cutting board as well. So today I spent a couple of hours reading up on the basics of cutting board for use with Japanese knives.

Here's the board that I've been using for the past few couple of years:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074HQTJX5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's a durable restaurant-grade NSF 18" x 12" x 1" plastic cutting board. But from what I read on various websites, including KKF, plastic boards isn't the best choice if one's priority is edge retention of many delicate Japanese cutlery. Something about plastic boards being too soft, allowing sharp and hard blades to dig in a little too deep into the cutting board, and when the knife is rolled or twisted, *snap* goes the edge, thus chipping the blade. Something along those lines.

To better accommodate Japanese kitchen knives, some recommended synthetic boards such as Hasegawa. So I read up on this supposedly superior cutting board and what do I find? It's a piece of wood coated in polypropylene, the very same material out of which my plastic cutting board is made of. Yeah...

Then it gets better.

Walnut and maple have been traditionally popular materials for cutting boards. But these woods are considered to be too hard for retaining that delicate sharpness of Japanese kitchen knives. Instead, many websites and Japanese cutlery aficionados recommend much softer wood such as hinoki. Then they go on about the superiority of end-grain boards over edge-grains. Fine, whatever. But when I search for end-grain hinoki cutting boards, there are none to be found anywhere! Just about every hinoki boards are edge-grain. Did I miss something?

If hinoki really is the best choice of wood for cutting boards to use with Japanese cutlery, then why aren't there abundant choices of end-grain hinoki boards for sale?

 

[josemartinlopez]

@Gloom might have a good explanation for this.

Hinoki boards are certainly available in Asia outside Japan.

 

[-Kiku-]

Hinoki boards are certainly available in Asia outside Japan.

Yes, hinoki boards are available outside of Japan, and they're certainly available here in the US. But that's not the point. Just about every hinoki board for sale have edge-grain instead of the supposedly superior end-grain.

Those that do have end-grain are usually made of walnut or maple wood, the type NOT RECOMMENDED for use with Japanese kitchen knives.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Who isn't recommending maple end grain boards? They're great

 

[AT5760]

End grain maple is easily the most recommended type of board around here. And lots of people are very happy with boards from the Boardsmith. I use a relatively inexpensive end grain acacia and an edge grain maple. The acacia is hard, so it probably wears edges faster than a softer wood. But, I've never had chipping issues with either.

People have differing views on what to use for raw proteins. I use wood and clean well afterwards, but others prefer plastic of some type that can go through the dishwasher.

Use what you like and see how it treats your edges. Then get something new if you aren't satisfied.

 

[crockerculinary]

You missed something. A few things actually. Not to give you too hard a time, but instead of assuming “shenanigans” (Which means cheating/dishonest behavior) you may want to question your own knowledge base first. Hinoki boards are softer wood that is quite different
from hardwoods and not as suitable for end grain- a much more open structure that absorb moisture and juices, swells unevenly, and breaks easier when arranged as an end grain. As an edge grain hinoki boards are more stable and is still considered a fairly Inexpensive and somewhat “disposable” product. Hard woods like maple are much sturdier and solid with a tight grain structure, and despite not being an ideal hardness, are commonly used by people with Japanese knives. (I’ve landed on cherry end grain as a favorite) Finally my incomplete understanding is that things like polypropylene are used for a wide variety of products with vastly different properties depending on treatment.

 

[Barmoley]

Hinoki boards are very soft and don’t need to be end grain, they are very easy on the edges. The problem with them is that they stain and are very soft and can’t go into the dishwasher, at least not repeatedly. Hasegawa boards are great too, not as easy on the edge, but excellent nonetheless. They don’t stain much can be cleaned with bleach and go into the dishwasher. End grain maple, cherry, etc are good too. Some edge grain are as well. Some people think that the edge of a Japanese style knife will crumble just if you look at it funny, this is not the case. Such believes usually come from improper sharpening, bad cutting technique, or edges that are way too thin and acute.

 

[ModRQC]

Proof at hand: my girlfriend looks at every new knife I get in funny. So far about 20 of them held just fine...

 

[nwshull]

Yes, hinoki boards are available outside of Japan, and they're certainly available here in the US. But that's not the point. Just about every hinoki board for sale have edge-grain instead of the supposedly superior end-grain.

Those that do have end-grain are usually made of walnut or maple wood, the type NOT RECOMMENDED for use with Japanese kitchen knives.

I think there's some confusion on the recommendations here.

A lot of those recommendations are made in the context of single bevel knives and Japanese traditional cuisine. Japanese haute cuisine had the knife spend a lot less time making contact with the board. That means you're scoring up the board a lot less. Additionally, specifically with seafood in the cuisine there is a very high delicate edge requirement that doesn't exist with what frankly a gyuto workhorse is designed for.

The heavier duty gyutos which have been developed for western cuisine spend a lot more time making contact with the board and require a tougher board the hinoki.

I also don't think that hard wood cutting boards are that common in Japan or in Japanese woodworking. I spent quite a bit of time looking in the kappabashi, Japanese big home stores, and the department stores, at kitchenware. None had hardwood cutting boards at all. They did have plastic boards that weren't blade friendly. I also spent a lot of time shopping at some high end woodworking toolshops in Tokyo on the same trip. You really had to make a point of making sure the tools you were buying were setup for the hardwoods we use stateside.

We in the West, and especially the East Coast of United States and Canada have cheaper access to some really great hardwood lumber that frankly the rest of the World doesn't have as easy access to. As a result US and Canadian board makers make some really fantastic boards that haven't caught on in Asia, including Japan, which use more traditional materials available in their area.

 

[-Kiku-]

End grain maple is easily the most recommended type of board around here.

With regard to the longevity of pricey Japanese cutlery in mind,
From: What Type of Cutting Board is Best?

Maple is in the hard wood category, at least according to the carne craft website.

From: Choosing a Cutting Board for Your Japanese Knife

From: Choosing a Cutting Board for Your Japanese Knife

I guess that sorta explains why there aren't many kaya cutting boards for sale. Japanese hon-kaya are prized for acoustics properties in goban.

From: Best Wood Cutting Boards 2020

Acacia, bamboo, and maple are hard woods. They may provide board longevity, but not so much on the edge retention.

Teak is a medium-soft wood but some don't recommend it as a cutting board material due to potentially high silicate content in the wood that can lend itself to excessive blade wear:

That leaves me with the following choices for 'ideal' cutting board materials:

Hinoki - soft wood, easy on the blade. I like the light color, too. But stains easily. Also the cheapest of the wood listed here (the good), but still costs easily x5 of polypropylene boards of comparable size.

Walnut - a little too dark in color to go with magnolia handles of my knives. Expensive.

Cherry - Lighter in color than the walnut wood, but still dark. More pricey than hinoki.

So I guess hinoki wins for now. In a couple of years when the time comes to replace the cutting board, I'll consider an end-grain cherry board.

 

[crockerculinary]

Clearly you know best

 

[AT5760]

I’m sorry that I tried to help. Good luck in your board search.

 

[ModRQC]

Hinoki boards aren’t so expensive. Perhaps twice the price of a quality polypropene.

Teak may be soft, it often contains silicate which is very very hard and can contribute to degradation. At 1150 maple isn’t SO hard and doesn’t contain silicates. Also these woods are most often advised in end grain boards, where the physics of the wood are counterbalanced by the inherent properties of end grain, with fibers parallel to the edge thus allowing absoption of the pure impact, and even edge wear to some extent.

Take a deep breath - relax. I use(d) bamboo and teak and edge grain maple with White, Blue, V-Toku, swedish carbon, SK5, A2 and whatnot. Not only I don’t get micro chipping at all, I also can attest that the longevity of my edge is not affected by the worser cutting surfaces in any way I can detect and measure. Of course, I don’t slice much, and in push cutting let the knife do the work with minimal impact. Still, I also do some tap chopping, and rock chopping, as well.

 

[jacko9]

Hasegawa Wood Core PE Rubber is my preferred board. I threw away the plastic boards to keep my wife from using them thinking that they were safe for protein. I have a few straight grain and one end grain boards that I made in my shop but I really like the cutting surface of the Hasegawa.

 

[Barmoley]

Hinoki are good boards for edges and since you want a lighter color should work for you. Just wet the board before use to combat staining to a degree. Hinoki is also soft so you’ll need to relish it sooner rather than later.

Like was mentioned before you can’t just look at the wood hardness when dealing with different wood orientation such as end grain. There are also a lot of synthetic boards that work very well.

To mirror others puzzlement, you seem very combative and not willing to listen to advice. Why ask in the first place if you then don’t listen and just argue? Everyone is trying to help with their knowledge and experiences, why virtually spit in their faces. You don’t have to listen to our advice either, but there Is really no need to throw random search results in our faces, we can all search, we are giving you information from years of varied personal experience.

 

[-Kiku-]

Even after several hours of reading up on the subject of cutting boards, ton of questions come flooding to my mind. To list a few:

How soft is considered too soft?
How hard is considered too hard?
Is there a quantifiable and measurable range of wood hardness considered to be ideal for use with kitchen knives of edge hardness in the range 60-65 HRC?

Polypropylene and hinoki are both considered soft materials.
Is one harder than the other? If so, which?

Wouldn't the same reasons that render plastic boards less than ideal for use with Japanese knives also apply to hinoki boards, and thus render it a poor choice, if both are comparatively soft.

And on and on...

So what have I gained after spending several hours of reading up on the subject of cutting boards? Two things:

1. Massive headache. Nothing some Tylenol and a good night's sleep can't fix. But a headache nonetheless.

2. Too many questions, not enough answers. I find myself wishing for a single source of comprehensive guide that provides a thorough info for newcomers like me who, as of a few hours ago, were completely oblivious to this subject.

There were some case studies done on related subjects such as this one but there are only few and each is a small piece to the much larger puzzle.

And then there's this

Clearly you know best

which comes off as a sarcastic remark.

 

[FishmanDE]

Just get a walnut end grain.

 

[tostadas]

I would put bamboo in the same category as glass, stone, and garbage disposal for "knife friendly".

 

[nwshull]

Even after several hours of reading up on the subject of cutting boards, ton of questions come flooding to my mind. To list a few:

How soft is considered too soft?
How hard is considered too hard?
Is there a quantifiable and measurable range of wood hardness considered to be ideal for use with kitchen knives of edge hardness in the range 60-65 HRC?

Polypropylene and hinoki are both considered soft materials.
Is one harder than the other? If so, which?

Wouldn't the same reasons that render plastic boards less than ideal for use with Japanese knives also apply to hinoki boards, and thus render it a poor choice, if both are comparatively soft.

And on and on...

So what have I gained after spending several hours of reading up on the subject of cutting boards? Two things:

1. Massive headache. Nothing some Tylenol and a good night's sleep can't fix. But a headache nonetheless.

2. Too many questions, not enough answers. I find myself wishing for a single source of comprehensive guide that provides a thorough info for newcomers like me who, as of a few hours ago, were completely oblivious to this subject.

There were some case studies done on related subjects such as this one but there are only few and each is a small piece to the much larger puzzle.

And then there's this

which comes off as a sarcastic remark.

What you need to understand are these are personal questions based on practices of the user. A cutting board is one component of a cutting system that is deeply dependent on the user's needs, habits, grind of knives, what type of edges they have, what they cook, what is there preferred cutting technique.

My preferences are closer to yours. I have a hisoft and a cherry end grain. But there are a ton of people here with far more experience here and probably 10k USD+ of Japanese knives who have maple end grains for a reason and you're just kind of dismissing them. Nobody is saying maple is easiest on the edge in one stroke. They're saying its a good lifetime material for constant heavy use over years.

Remember the same way the right knife for a omakase counter and a French tasting menu chef is likely different, so can be the requirements for a cutting board. Hinoki is absolutely a great choice for Japanese high cuisine. But it is a cuisine which techniques emphasize keeping the knife off the board and more deliberate cuts. Western cuisine involves a lot of heavy vegetable and meat prep that is a lot more abusive on a cutting board, and you want a more durable cutting board that does not allow the knife to dig in as much.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Maybe y'all didn't notice, this info is from "The Definitive Cutting Board Buying and Care Guide," end of discussion

"Carnecraft.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Carnecraft.com"

Seems legit

 

[rmrf]

To better accommodate Japanese kitchen knives, some recommended synthetic boards such as Hasegawa. So I read up on this supposedly superior cutting board and what do I find? It's a piece of wood coated in polypropylene, the very same material out of which my plastic cutting board is made of. Yeah...

I'm not sure this is a true statement. From my admittedly short google search, it seems like hasegawa brown is made of polyethylene encased wood not polypropylene. Even if both boards were comprised of the same polymer, it is not necessarily true that they would have the same properties. I know that there is cross-linked (high density) polyethylene and low density polyethylene and I'd bet they have different physical properties. Cross linking polymers can change their chemical resistance for instance. A chemist would probably be able to tell you more, but in general its risky talking about polymers with such broad strokes. I'll give you practical example: teflon vs abs. ABS is used in 3d printers because it flows well around 200C. Teflon will not flow. Before it melts, it decomposes. Even when melted, it acts like a gel which is why teflon parts are expensive and lego are made of abs.

Polymer research is also a big business. Dupont comes to mind.

In terms of your question about board hardness and softness for edge retention, I suspect the way you cut matters as much as board composition.

 

[rmrf]

How soft is considered too soft?
How hard is considered too hard?
Is there a quantifiable and measurable range of wood hardness considered to be ideal for use with kitchen knives of edge hardness in the range 60-65 HRC?

I think you're asking for a systematic study of edge retention when chopping with a wide selection of boards using different cutting techniques. If you want something definitive, I think you're not going to find it. You can get anecdotal results. A private citizen doesn't have the resources or scale to make this test. The best source of data is probably restaurants, but chefs who care about sharpness probably just sharpen their knives. You'd have to ask a pro-chef, but I bet there are more important considerations than edge retention when choosing a cutting board.

Polypropylene and hinoki are both considered soft materials.
Is one harder than the other? If so, which?

Hardness might not be the right metric here... Tensile strength? Density?

Wouldn't the same reasons that render plastic boards less than ideal for use with Japanese knives also apply to hinoki boards, and thus render it a poor choice, if both are comparatively soft.

I found this on an amazon search. Polymer boards aren't all equal. Hasegawa brown is PE. From this table, that is consistent with the rule-of-thumb that hasegawa brown is easier on the edge than other types of polymer cutting boards.

2. Too many questions, not enough answers. I find myself wishing for a single source of comprehensive guide that provides a thorough info for newcomers like me who, as of a few hours ago, were completely oblivious to this subject.

Get NIST on the phone. Or, make cooking in space a thing, then NASA will do it.

 

[crockerculinary]

And then there's this

which comes off as a sarcastic remark.

It was.
Because-

... for newcomers like me who, as of a few hours ago, were completely oblivious to this subject.

And yet armed with your few hours of experience and at least 4 websites worth of research you seem totally comfortable telling people with many combined years of experience that they’re wrong and you know better than them. With what reads as an arrogant tone I might add. Of course I could be wrong on that one, tone and subtleties of language are pretty tricky online, which is why it’s generally a good idea to try and be thoughtful and extra polite with people and subjects you don’t know well.

 

[juice]

To mirror others puzzlement, you seem very combative and not willing to listen to advice. Why ask in the first place if you then don’t listen and just argue? Everyone is trying to help with their knowledge and experiences, why virtually spit in their faces.

And this isn't the first thread where the exact same pattern has been followed by this poster, either.

 

[labor of love]

If I wanted a wooden board I’d go with Cherrywood over maple no question.

 

[-Kiku-]

"Carnecraft.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Carnecraft.com"

Seems legit

Thank you for pointing that out. Honestly, I didn't notice the fine print.

I would put bamboo in the same category as glass, stone, and garbage disposal for "knife friendly".

Noted. And the quantitative study done in this paper seems to support/confirm that claim:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Chopping_Boards.pdfThe results are also quite surprising. Made for an entertaining and educational read.

 

[josemartinlopez]

OP, one big plus is that hinoki wood is light and even a big board can be lifted readily. No need to scoop up julienned vegetables with a knife.

 

[-Kiku-]

And yet armed with your few hours of experience and at least 4 websites worth of research you seem totally comfortable telling people with many combined years of experience that they’re wrong and you know better than them. With what reads as an arrogant tone I might add. Of course I could be wrong on that one, tone and subtleties of language are pretty tricky online, which is why it’s generally a good idea to try and be thoughtful and extra polite with people and subjects you don’t know well.

First of all, my apologies to you and others if you found my OP, and whatever other posts I made afterwards, so perplexingly offensive. My intention was getting to the bottom of this perplexing and confusing subject so I can make an informed buying decision for my next cutting board.

For what it's worth, English is my second language, so perhaps there's the language barrier that may have contributed to this misunderstanding. But try to see from my point of view. After a few hours of intense search, I am left with piles upon piles of confusing and often contracting info. As many newcomers would in those situations, I was confused, exhausted, and perplexed. And when someone makes advice without sufficiently explaining the reasons behind it, I don't know what to make of it, especially if that advice directly contradicts what I read online. So am I to take every advice offered in this forum and thread as the gospel of truth? Of course not!

Instead of interpreting my response and writing me off as someone arrogant, how about taking the time to patiently explain things in a way I can better understand? I think that will be much more constructive in the long run. I am a curious and inquisitive type after all, but I also do tend to be frustrated easily - one of my many weaknesses.

So ... once again, I apologize to all of you who were offended by my posts for whatever reason. I am simply here to efficiently gather information so I can make informed buy decisions. That's all. I am not trying nor pretending to be someone I am not.

So can we please move along and return to the subject at hand? Are we cool with that?

 

[-Kiku-]

OP, one big plus is that hinoki wood is light and even a big board can be lifted readily. No need to scoop up julienned vegetables with a knife.

I am not too concerned about the weight of the board. Although I am not a big person (5' 2"), I can lift fairly heavy objects unless ... the cutting board weighs something like ... 30 lbs (~13.6 kg). Then yes, that would be very awkward.

As for scooping up chopped vegetables, I have a habit of doing so with the spine of the blade (I've been using German/Chinese cleavers most of the time). I do this even with crappy cheap kitchen knives as I have been doing so for many years. I always try to be as gentle/careful as possible with knives in general.

I stopped cutting bones (chicken bones) for over 4 years. Reason: Every time I chopped chicken thigh bones, there would be noticeable damage to the blade, even though I was using soft steel German/Chinese cleavers! That's when I decided that I have had enough with cutting through bones and since then, every time I cut protein, it's been always boneless ever since.

There was also that one time when a thin sheet of plastic board I used exclusively for cutting protein, was cleaved into two pieces while I was chopping. It was ... unexpected. Left a lasting impression and I vowed never again to cut through bones.

 

[FishmanDE]

From what I can tell, you’ve asked 4 questions and the people of the forum have done their best to answer them. And done so effectively and efficiently IMO. I’m not sure what you’re looking for, but you’re clearly not going to find it. As far as your perceived attitude, you clearly have a firm grasp of the English language and have a very clear arrogant overtone. I personally dont plan on responding to your posts in the future.