Cutting Tang Slots in Japanese Handle Collars?

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gregfisk

gregfisk

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How are you guys cutting the slot in your collar? I’ve seen a couple of videos of guys using a drill press. Drilling a line of holes and then filing them into a slot. I tried this once but it was a lot of work and the results were less than great.

Have any of you used a router with a cnc bit? Or used a cnc machine or something else to get a cleaner result?
 
There's no reason it shouldn't work. I think most people use a drill press and connect the dots because most everybody who makes knives already has a drill press.
 
Oh a mill or CNC router is definitely the way to go, those are just big boy toys that few knifemakers have, especially considering hobbyists. A jeweler's saw can be handy in "connecting the dots" and can reduce tedious file work. With practice results will get better and faster with hand tools, but of course nothing like the speed of a power tool.
 
I recently built an MPCNC, but need to modify the table to work for handles like this.
Currently I drill holds and use a drill bit more like an end mill. I may chuck up an end mill in my drill press and see how that works.
 
which part is the collar?

in a regular japanese handle there is the light ho/magnolia wood which has a circular hole for the dowel pin
the dowel pin which has a slot.
and the horn which has a round hole to fit the dowel pin. right?

so if we are talking about making a slot in the dowel pin you can either just saw it. or saw and file/rasp it.

i learned a trick from a bike frame building site. when making the slot in the seat tube of the frame you can use 2 or 3 stacked hacksaw blades in the hacksaw to make the slot wider... this will work for the dowel pin too i guess.
 
That isn't recommended in a drill press with a press fit chuck, especially if you are going to attempt side cutting, as the mill flutes want to pull the chuck off, which only has friction for retention.
 
Bensbites said:
I may chuck up an end mill in my drill press and see how that works.
Click to expand...

dont do this with metals. you will only ruin the bearings above the chuck. drill presses are made to drill only downwards, so they have bearings for that type of load.
a drill press is not a milling machine "light".

if you wanna mill slots get some thin hss discs for milling slots. they create much much better finish for slots than endmills. and its faster too. and they dont bend and snap as thin endmills will if you are trying to go fast.
if you want to mill slots with an endmill i think you have to get one with either 3 or 5 flutes. otherwise it will just rattle around and make a **** surface. if doing the whole width at once that is. which you should never do with endmills anyway.

also if you only have a standard mill with standard feed rates and standards rpm range you might ecounter other trouble. cncs for wood/plastics usually do like 30k rpms and like half a meter per second in feed, and they need to do that to not simply burn or melt the materials being machined.

/ ex sado machinist
 
another sidenote on endmills. in manual machines with trapezoid feed screws (also for lathes) you always go with the cutting edge into the part machining on the left side, then you load it on the left side kinda (and it will tilt a little to the right). and you offset the cutter so it clears chips to the right. usually you want 50-75% or so "width of cut"/overlap sideways. so when taking an new cut sideways you move 50-75% of the cutter diameter to the left each time, with the feed direction as reference. if you have a 10mm end mill, you should take 7mm or so cuts sideways each time. imo.

but with (real) cncs if you have a ball screw feed you go the other feed direction since this creates less load/wear/increase life on the cutting tool, and unlike trapezoid screws the the action of the cutting wont try to make the cutter "climb" on the screw with every flute touching the work piece. since there is always slack on trapezoid screws. and none in ball screws.
 
Caleb Cox said:
https://arizonaironwood.com/products/carbon-fiber-composite-digital-caliper-cal100
This link is a little misleading, it's for a handle broach. Many swear by these for being much faster than files and rasps for hidden tang work in wood, so I've been considering grabbing one.
Click to expand...

you can just as well do the same with a blade from one of these mounted in any handle. all scandi makers use this method.

1024px-Jigsaw_AccuMaster.jpg


i have one of these rasps though. from brisa. its a lot better the the saw blades imo. looks like **** in the pic there thoough
https://www.brisa.fi/catalog/product/view/id/1351/s/raspi-litte/category/1824/
but its actually very much a precision tool. you can see its no joke. mora handle for scale



minirasp1.JPG
minirasp2.JPG
minirasp3.JPG
 
Inferno, on a traditional Japanese handle the knife end of the handle is called the collar. Not sure why it’s different than other knives.

I have of late been making my handles out of epoxy resin with aluminum end caps. I made a contraption using a trim router and endmills that works fairly well for what I’m doing. I get a very clean slot and it is way faster than drilling multiple holes and connecting the dots. I can take pictures if anyone is interested. I’m still very interested in what others are doing for this part of knife making. The one thing I’ve learned since starting on this journey is that there are a lot of steps and different processes that have to be learned in order to make a knife start to finish. And I’m not even forging my own steel, just buying sheet material and heat treating it.
 
yeah i use the jigsaw saws, drills, and the small rasps and files. the rasp is the best of the, imo. unless you do metals then you will ruin it. but for wood/soft stuff its the fastest.

yeah there is a lot to be learned but you can learn most stuff today on the internet. or buy/loan a few book on HT-ing and such. knowledge is the lightest burden to carry.

all i know is that i learned more from reading books about steel at the library for 30 minutes than i ever would have by reading bladeforums for 20 years. yeah its that ratio.
 
I’d like to see the trim router setup. Making my handles comes close to sharpening for me. I’m no pro and it’s a hobby, but I get into a certain “zen like” meditation from doing both. Relaxes me.
 
 
nevrknow said:
I’d like to see the trim router setup. Making my handles comes close to sharpening for me. I’m no pro and it’s a hobby, but I get into a certain “zen like” meditation from doing both. Relaxes me.
Click to expand...
I should be able to take some pictures tomorrow and post them here.
 
inferno said:
you can just as well do the same with a blade from one of these mounted in any handle. all scandi makers use this method.

1024px-Jigsaw_AccuMaster.jpg


i have one of these rasps though. from brisa. its a lot better the the saw blades imo. looks like **** in the pic there thoough
https://www.brisa.fi/catalog/product/view/id/1351/s/raspi-litte/category/1824/
but its actually very much a precision tool. you can see its no joke. mora handle for scale



View attachment 73991 View attachment 73992 View attachment 73993
Click to expand...
Nice, Corradi rasps work great as well.
 
HSC /// Knives said:
I use my Bridgeport mill. as a fulltime maker, I have to be efficient and just don't have time to "bob for french fries" :D
Yes! This is definitely the way to go. I’ve been toying with the idea of making a simple mill. This is a new hobby for me but I would love to have a mill. Check back and see what I came up with using a trim router. It works well with the type of block your showing. I’m jealous!
vaCobfz.jpg
Click to expand...
 
inferno said:
you can just as well do the same with a blade from one of these mounted in any handle. all scandi makers use this method.

1024px-Jigsaw_AccuMaster.jpg


i have one of these rasps though. from brisa. its a lot better the the saw blades imo. looks like **** in the pic there thoough
https://www.brisa.fi/catalog/product/view/id/1351/s/raspi-litte/category/1824/
but its actually very much a precision tool. you can see its no joke. mora handle for scale



View attachment 73991 View attachment 73992 View attachment 73993
Click to expand...
The flat rasp snaps easily, whenever your slot allows it, use the square one it holds up much better and I believe it's faster too.
 
Well, I attached the photos above and then couldn’t figure out how to add text? This is a device I made to cut the slots for my knife tangs. The aluminum shelf is adjustable with a knob on the back “see the third picture down”. This allows me to center the slot in my piece. The stops allow for adjustment for slot length. I make up several pieces at once all the same size for efficiency. This router has a thumb wheel for depth adjustment so I I turn the wheel after each pass. This gives me a very clean slot and I can also regulate the speed of the router for different endmills and materials.
 
Dave Martell said:
I like the poor man's mill!

I'll admit to using my drill press with an end mill in it. :eek:
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave, I’m going to modify it so that the stops are easier to adjust and get rid of the clamps. I too tried to use my drill press but that didn’t work very well
 
I like the jig, nice setup!

I have used an end mill piece in a drill press but depth was an issue and I don't have a drill press at home.

Currently I use a rotary tool with a flex shaft and needle rasps from eBay (cheap and nasty but work well). Always making sure that the angle I am filing at widens the back of the ferrule as opposed to the front so as to not make the tang slot too large

For real clean lines I would love a mill.
 
ForeverLearning said:
I like the jig, nice setup!

I have used an end mill piece in a drill press but depth was an issue and I don't have a drill press at home.

Currently I use a rotary tool with a flex shaft and needle rasps from eBay (cheap and nasty but work well). Always making sure that the angle I am filing at widens the back of the ferrule as opposed to the front so as to not make the tang slot too large

For real clean lines I would love a mill.
Click to expand...

I’ve used a chainsaw sharpening file in a drill before so kind of a similar idea.

I just finished this device by adding two adjustment knobs to replace the clamps I was using. These adjust the stops on either side of the mill cutter for slot length. The great thing about this set up is I get a perfect slot, just as if I was using a mill. It takes longer but it gets the job done and didn’t break the bank.
 
With buffalo horn it's very easy. I drill a small hole in the middle, heat up the tang and burn it in. It's perfect, fast and easy. For heat up the tang I use a 1000w induction heater from China.
 
When working with metal, before I got my mill drill I would drill two holes on the drill press, then use a jewellers saw to connect them. Much faster than the join the dots approach, and way less finishing work with needle files. Now of course I just throw everything in the mill!
 
That’s a good idea Beau, I had a hell of a time making slots before I made my set up with the trim router. I tried putting a grinder type bit in my drill press and putting a chain saw sharpening file in my drill press. Neither worked very well.
 
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