Deba sharpening

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vk2109

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Hi I have looked around the sharpening process on youtube thru Korin's and also Jon's from JKI
the latter being the more detailed and better explained one)....

I was wondering if you have tiny microchips on the blade ... what's the ideal step by step process ?
do you start with the ararato but still do the uraoshi after always with the finer one ?
( i have 3 stones - 320, 1000 and 6000) ?

many thanks.
 

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osakajoe said:
Stick to jons videos and don’t watch korins videos unless you want to over grind the back of your Deba and ruin it.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, is it (more or less) common knowledge that the approach to single bevel sharpening demonstranted in that video is wrong?
I have never dared using a coarse stone on the back side as he does (afraid of ruining the concavity). Any ideas why he recommended the aggressive approach?
 
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You might find that going with a 2000 grit stone it will be all that is needed, and a lot quicker then using a 1000 grit stone.
 
JBroida said:
Yeah... if you can’t fix it with a medium grit stone, use a coarser one, but it will go like this: (front)coarse, (back)fine, (front)medium, (back)fine,(front) fine, (back) fine
Click to expand...
thank you very much Jon. appreciated
 
Carl Kotte said:
Out of curiosity, is it (more or less) common knowledge that the approach to single bevel sharpening demonstranted in that video is wrong?
I have never dared using a coarse stone on the back side as he does (afraid of ruining the concavity). Any ideas why he recommended the aggressive approach?
Click to expand...

The Korin ones right ?
 
Sorry forgot to write a reply.

My guess is that the young Asian guy just learned from just that one guy (the older Japanese guy). I assume he thought this was the correct way and never bothered to fix this or look out other people for advice.

How the Japanese guy learned this is hard to say. But my guess is that he went and watched an actual grinder who uses an big water wheel. These are slightly different the using whetstones.

When doing single bevel resharpening on these, you first check to make sure the core steel is coming out on the main side so you can form an edge. If not you would grind and make sure it does. If core is out, you fix the ura, which is usually rusted or over ground flat. They set the concave ura on these big water wheels as the are round not flat. By putting the ura flat on the wheel it naturally keeps that concave fixing any mistake and restoring it.

If you follow this procedure literally without taking into account the round wheel, you start grinding your back all the time. So why not always do this because this is how the pros do it, even though they aren’t using small whetstones.



Here are some pictures to maybe help illustrate.

Really overground back on a Yanagiba that I have put on the water wheel to fix. You can see it has been ground flat quite severe.
ukt5pPa.jpg


A Yanagiba that is slightly better off than the one above. Before grinding and almost finished on the back. Still some over ground flat spots that need fixing but mostly finished as I’ve already touched the edge (the import part).
uS6Mjnd.jpg

BdrP3V7.jpg
 
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osakajoe said:
Sorry forgot to write a reply.

My guess is that the young Asian guy just learned from just that one guy (the older Japanese guy). I assume he thought this was the correct way and never bothered to fix this or look out other people for advice.

How the Japanese guy learned this is hard to say. But my guess is that he went and watched an actual grinder who uses an big water wheel. These are slightly different the using whetstones.

When doing single bevel resharpening on these, you first check to make sure the core steel is coming out on the main side so you can form an edge. If not you would grind and make sure it does. If core is out, you fix the ura, which is usually rusted or over ground flat. They set the concave ura on these big water wheels as the are round not flat. By putting the ura flat on the wheel it naturally keeps that concave fixing any mistake and restoring it.

If you follow this procedure literally without taking into account the round wheel, you start grinding your back all the time. So why not always do this because this is how the pros do it, even though they aren’t using small whetstones.



Here are some pictures to maybe help illustrate.

Really overground back on a Yanagiba that I have put on the water wheel to fix. You can see it has been ground flat quite severe.
ukt5pPa.jpg


A Yanagiba that is slightly better off than the one above. Before grinding and almost finished on the back. Still some over ground flat spots that need fixing but mostly finished as I’ve already touched the edge (the import part).
uS6Mjnd.jpg

BdrP3V7.jpg
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for the elaborate answer! It is much appreciated.
As said, I have never dared following his advice so my uras have some decades left before everything is flat.
On a sidenote, I really like his smile and intriguing secrecy (all the promises in the style of ’I will explain this another time!’ that apparently haven’t been kept). One of the downsides is that everything gets a bit mysterious and opaque.
 
O.J. would like to hate Korin & Mr. Sugai as they are discredited every time for some reasons about various things, and O.J. loves, loves, loves Jon and some knife retailers that receive kisses every time for some other reasons, that they can do no wrong. It’s fine. I began to be tired of it because Mr. Sugai passed away, he’s not online, and he could not defend himself. Korin was also a vendor here.


I met Mr. Sugai a couple of times, and he seems nice, genuine. He didn’t look like a knife god who does no wrong but a regular folk who seems to like art & craft genuinely. Someone seems to hate Mr. Sugai genuinely with a purpose of ruining his reputation and discrediting Korin. Karma is no longer working in the world. The offenders always win.


I imagine all Japanese sharpeners do something wrong and right to be pointed out easily, as all have quirks/practices of their own (different trainers and personal beliefs/experiences), and mystery is perhaps a part of that. Even scientists argue about some quirky details all the time, even if they are wrong. We are human beings, not machines. Take it easy. I’m sure Mr. Sugai might know something that most younger sharpeners do wrong just for the sake of pointing it out. But he is no longer here to balance a perspective of someone who keeps discrediting Korin and Mr. Sugai. Rest in peace. I wish him well and Korin in all its endeavor.
 
I think that it's a very common way to maintain a deba in Japan judging by the condition of used and vintage ones available on the bay. I would love to buy one for restoration but the uras are all completely flat.
 
never mind said:
O.J. would like to hate Korin & Mr. Sugai as they are discredited every time for some reasons about various things, and O.J. loves, loves, loves Jon and some knife retailers that receive kisses every time for some other reasons, that they can do no wrong. It’s fine. I began to be tired of it because Mr. Sugai passed away, he’s not online, and he could not defend himself. Korin was also a vendor here.


I met Mr. Sugai a couple of times, and he seems nice, genuine. He didn’t look like a knife god who does no wrong but a regular folk who seems to like art & craft genuinely. Someone seems to hate Mr. Sugai genuinely with a purpose of ruining his reputation and discrediting Korin. Karma is no longer working in the world. The offenders always win.


I imagine all Japanese sharpeners do something wrong and right to be pointed out easily, as all have quirks/practices of their own (different trainers and personal beliefs/experiences), and mystery is perhaps a part of that. Even scientists argue about some quirky details all the time, even if they are wrong. We are human beings, not machines. Take it easy. I’m sure Mr. Sugai might know something that most younger sharpeners do wrong just for the sake of pointing it out. But he is no longer here to balance a perspective of someone who keeps discrediting Korin and Mr. Sugai. Rest in peace. I wish him well and Korin in all its endeavor.
Click to expand...

So, let me get this straight. Your defense of improper sharpening for single bevels comes down to "don't disrespect the dead" is that right? Regardless of feelings, over-sharpening the ura is objectively bad even when we ignore the geometry concerns because you then have a larger surface area that needs to be ground flat and you have to contend with a stone that is constantly being worn out of true and requiring more time spent to remove a comparable amount of metal at the edge. The end result is that you almost always have a part of the edge on the ura side that has an increased apex angle that then needs to be further ground from the front or from the back to fix OR you need to increase the angle further on the ura side in order to form a clean apex which then perpetuates the cycle of bad sharpening.

Or we could just stop getting so emotional and think about it logically and not grind our uras on coarse stones.
 
stringer said:
I think that it's a very common way to maintain a deba in Japan judging by the condition of used and vintage ones available on the bay. I would love to buy one for restoration but the uras are all completely flat.
Click to expand...

Not all [emoji16] But it is common to find vintage debas without uras online. I’ve managed to find a couple with ok uras and they all work well now.
 
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Thank you, Barclid, for sharing your perception about what’s going on
 
To be clear, I never intended to disrespect Mr. Sugai (didn’t know that was his name) or Korin. I was simply curious about this particular piece of advice.
 
Things I do for this thread. Have not watched Chiharu Sugai DVD in many years but remember his yanagi sharpening to be good advice. This is long before ever joined this forum and watched Jon's yanagi sharpening. I looked for almost an hour finally found it.

His yanagiba technique is sound. the translator in english must lose some in his video but if you know sharpening you get the point. He emphasis on keeping a sharp shinogi line not rounding it, and just removing the burr on the Urasuki side with back side flat on the polishing stone edge leading stroke. Says taking burr off yanagi is called Uraoshi.

Points out common mistakes as not keeping a crisp shinogi line & that urasuki side of blade is not sharpening just removing the burr. Over sharpening of the backside flattens out the hollow grind & causes issues. Like ruined urasuki that Osaka Joe posted. Sugai is very clear about this. He even shows how to sharpen the shinogi line on an older yanagi. Exactly how Jon shows shinogi line sharpening keeping a non rounded crisp bevel.

Nevermind had some good points. It is easier to trash somebody being an a expert without knowing all the facts. If the guy on the video is taking too long backside on a medium stone sharpening a deba its not the same. Sugai also says for beginners to lift the knife off the stone every stroke instead of changing finger pad pressure on trailing and edge leading strokes. I was taught finger pad pressure it's how I sharpened for decades. When teaching beginning students most who have never sharpened a knife this was a learning challange. I remembered Chiharu Sugai's advice. I think teaching Americans to sharpen he had to make it easier. It was excellent advice I tried it on stone trailing strokes & knife got very sharp. Made it much easier for them to learn.

It makes me feel good when person I taught goes to the work force & teaches other cooks to sharpen knives. I am sure Sugai never knew how he made it much smoother for me going one on one with almost two hundred culinary students last 5 years.

Dave Martell-- The Art of Sharpening Basics Volume I. I don't know what ever happened to volume 2:D. Had good tips in that video. Some I use in class including they can get a small quality H2O trigger bottle to mist their stones from Ace Hardware same isle as barkeepers friend. On handout I give them site to Jon's sharpening video's.
 
To the OP's main question, I am not one to issue blanket statements. I typically think they are dangerous. However, here it is:

Stalk Jon Broida \ JKI on YouTube, watching every single sharpening video. Then do that to your knives.
 

Deba sharpening in Japanese. This popped up on my you tube this afternoon.
I have Martell, Harrelson Stanley and Master Sugai DVDs
My friend bought us shuns years ago, he chipped his. I asked Master Sugai to break policy of only working on knives bought from Korin and repair it. He fixed it graciously and inexpensively!
Can lend out dvds if there is interest.
 
lowercasebill said:

Deba sharpening in Japanese. This popped up on my you tube this afternoon.
I have Martell, Harrelson Stanley and Master Sugai DVDs
My friend bought us shuns years ago, he chipped his. I asked Master Sugai to break policy of only working on knives bought from Korin and repair it. He fixed it graciously and inexpensively!
Can lend out dvds if there is interest.
Click to expand...

Patient tenacity.

Sharpener-San in the video probably grinds 3+hrs on that Deba from #120 to 4k! I’ve had some similar sessions this year and I have to say it’s made me a much better sharpener.

Especially with the Deba. It’s such a unique blade and the grind feels super awkward on the stones, you really jut have to get after it and learn from your mistakes.

Of the many enriching lessons I’ve learned sharpening, my favorite to share among those seeking advice at work: pain pays
 
Unlike yanagiba always put a micro bevel on my Deba. At the heel actually cut In a small double bevel makes it tougher taking off fish heads going through the spine.
 
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