Differences between blue#2 blue#1 and blue super.

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memorael

memorael

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Wondering what your experience with these steels is. I particularly like blue super, it seems to get very sharp, hold the edge for a loooooooooong time and just seems to be the better of the bunch. I have had some blue#2 knives from Tanaka and Doi I believe. To me blue#2 seemed to get sharp but never sharp enough it holds that edge a while but kind off felt like a white number #2 that didn't get as sharp. When cutting things blue super seems to want to cut through quickly and aggressively while blue #2 seemed to be lazy. IDK, anyone else care to share your thoughts and experiences.
 
blue 1 and 2 are easier to work with on natural stones IME.

personally though I really dont care, theyre all good. super tends to come with stainless cladding though and that's a dealbreaker for me most of the time.

I dont actually get the "doesnt get as sharp" argument either, as most folks around here are using gyutos and it's not like you're trying to polish them to 40k or whatever. I have little use for people's subjective evaluations of how "sharp" a knife feels. people are really, really good at convincing themselves there are differences that dont exist, or overlooking what is the root cause of their perceived difference.

never gets sharp enough? that seems like a you problem, not a steel problem 🤷‍♂️
 
I’m quite opposite, to me the sharpness goes from
blue2>blue1>Blue super
liked you said blue2 is very similar to White2 as it takes finer edge(assuming all finished at same stones), Blue Super been the toothiest.

It really depends on what you’re cutting, my AS cuts better than my White steels on some vegetables, but when it comes to cutting raw fish, nothing cuts better than my White steel knives.

Heat treatment also a factor, I’ve handled 1 blue2 that’s very easy to sharpen and can reach razor sharp, but other blue2 with bad heat treatment sharpened liked ZDP-189, and still can’t get it sharp.
 
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memorael said:
Wondering what your experience with these steels is. I particularly like blue super, it seems to get very sharp, hold the edge for a loooooooooong time and just seems to be the better of the bunch. I have had some blue#2 knives from Tanaka and Doi I believe. To me blue#2 seemed to get sharp but never sharp enough it holds that edge a while but kind off felt like a white number #2 that didn't get as sharp. When cutting things blue super seems to want to cut through quickly and aggressively while blue #2 seemed to be lazy. IDK, anyone else care to share your thoughts and experiences.
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This reads like a post from someone that wants to sound like they're in the know when they really don't know much.
 
bahamaroot said:
This reads like a post from someone that wants to sound like they're in the know when they really don't know much.
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Harsh response. He's reporting experiences ("seems") and asking what others' experiences are. Surely one with few experiences should still be encouraged to do that here. I see no signs of putting on airs, myself.
 
Based on my limited experience, for the majority of kitchen tasks, edges from a mid grit natural (like a good Aizu) feel sharp enough and most of the time steel type does not really make a big difference. So what I have learned is that sharpness problem sometimes is really just sharpening problem, and this might not really mean "lack of sharpening skills". For instance, the stones or pressure used might suit some profiles/steels/HT etc better than others.
On the other hand, for some really delicate tasks such slicing very thin sashimi etc., I feel white 1 from some makers does handle the job slightly better with its ultimate sharpness and ease of sharpening.
 
Not saying the steel does not matter, but the quality of the edge (sharpness and retention) is largely related to the skill and the tools, especially in kitchen environment where we don't seek super high grit edge. Some steels are more forgiving to average skills for sure, but in general getting a sharp edge is much easier than getting a long-lasting sharp edge IME. You need to learn the specific steel and your tool to really get an optimal result.

I personally can't really differentiate blue 1 from blue 2. Blue super is slightly different but not by much. White 1, white 2 and white 3 are also quite similar to me. Same steel with different heat treat might be more distinct than different steels by the same maker. For example, Y Tanaka blue 1 and blue 2 are the same steel to me. I bet if an unknown carbon steel is given to KKF members, most can't really tell what it is. For example, what is the steel used for Kato WH? Who can tell that from the use for sure? I feel like it's sort of blue steel but I won't put my money on it.
 
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Hz_zzzzzz said:
Not saying the steel does not matter, but the quality of the edge (sharpness and retention) is largely related to the skill and the tools, especially in kitchen environment where we don't seek super high grit edge. Some steels are more forgiving to average skills for sure, but in general getting a sharp edge is much easier than getting a long-lasting sharp edge IME. You need to learn the specific steel and your tool to really get an optimal result.

I personally can't really differentiate blue 1 from blue 2. Blue super is slightly different but not by much. White 1, white 2 and white 3 are also quite similar to me. Same steel with different heat treat might be more distinct than different steels by the same maker. For example, Y Tanaka blue 1 and blue 2 are the same steel to me. I bet if an unknown carbon steel is given to KKF members, most can't really tell what it is. For example, what is the steel used for Kato WH? Who can tell that from the use for sure? I feel like it's sort of blue steel but I won't put my money on it.
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I agree with what you wrote about how pro kitchen knives need a different type of edge. I can get a super sharp edge that splits hairs and is sharp as hell but cut one acidic food and the edge is gone, or hit the board a little to hard and the edge is also gone or folded. The shape of the knife, the geometry, helps with how efficient a knife is at cutting, I for example like asymmetrical edges, I only sharpen one side of the knife and deburr on the other side which a lot of people will say is a dumb edge cause it won't last etc... but it works for me and I like using my knives like that.

What I meant when I wrote that blue super gets sharper I actually didn't explain myself really well I guess, what I mean is that in my experience when using blue super when cutting something like meat or fish the knife cuts really aggressively like how someone mentioned the edge feels toothier. The other steels get really sharp and they cut but at the moment of cutting they have a different feel that I interpret as not as sharp.
 
Jason183 said:
I’m quite opposite, to me the sharpness goes from
blue2>blue1>Blue super
liked you said blue2 is very similar to White2 as it takes finer edge(assuming all finished at same stones), Blue Super been the toothiest.

It really depends on what you’re cutting, my AS cuts better than my White steels on some vegetables, but when it comes to cutting raw fish, nothing cuts better than my White steel knives.

Heat treatment also a factor, I’ve handled 1 blue2 that’s very easy to sharpen and can reach razor sharp, but other blue2 with bad heat treatment sharpened liked ZDP-189, and still can’t get it sharp.
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This is exactly what I was asking, what your experience in using the steels is. I too find blue super gets "toothier" which is what I interpret as sharp. I think some people interpreted what I said as white steel and other blue steels not getting crazy sharp, they do, but when the actual cutting happens I know for a fact the steel feels different. Some examples in my experience are as follows:

Misono UX10 really aggressive edge, feels really toothy and when cutting something like beef you can really feel it grab on to it and cuts through with little effort. I remember finishing this on a 6k king which is my go to for stainless steels.
Suisin INOX Honyaki, I really like this steel finished with the king 6k, when cutting vegetables like carrots or potatoes it feels like it glides through, on beef it feels like a little more effort is needed to finish the cut, in a sense it feels like you need to push down on the knife in order to get it to cut but it leaves a nice clean slice.
Masamoto KS gyuto carbon steel version, This gets really sharp, it would cut through proteins cleanly and slipped through without much effort but again I felt I needed to push down on the knife a bit in order to get it to cut, not a lot but I could notice it and basically had to change my cutting style. I would finish this on a natural Japanese stone, different finishers some left a toothier edge which I liked better but in general the feeling when cutting remained, I also used the kitayama 8k, king 8k, naniwa 10k, chocera 10k, chocera 5k and the naniwa snow white. I liked the synthetic stones better than the natural ones, it left a toothier edge.
Tadatsuna INOX, this knife is craaaaaazy, the edge feels similar to the suisin INOX honyaki but it gets toothier, finishing this knife on a naniwa 10k get you an edge that doesn't last more than a shift if your lucky but if you thin the knife and polish it really good it will literally fall through onions, on protein it feels pretty much equal with the suisin but I think I like it better.
Tanaka blue #2, feels a lot like the masamoto KS but the edge feels less sharp. It will last longer, on the KS slice a couple of tomatoes or cooked proteins and the edge is pretty much gone, on this knife it feels like you could strop every thirty minutes and get through a shift, I wouldn't want to do that on the KS.
Ginga INOX, again the edge feels really toothy very similar to the UX
Hattori forums knife, o man... this knife is a love hate relationship. It has the qualities, in my experience of the blue #2 and the Suisin INOX where it gets sharp but the edge isn't as aggressive??? IDK... I like that it sharpens up easily and it cuts well but if any of the knives I have ever used feels like a tool I would say it's this one. I wouldn't use it if I didn't have to but since it gets the job done and its there its kinda like a o well.... Works well on everything just doesn't excel for me at nothing, its not a bad knife just not exciting to use.
Suisin INOX, the ones with the brown handle, They get sharp to to where something like a 3k or 5k works well, its a good knife something that is easy to use and guilt free. They work well on protein since the edge is toothy but lack that aggressiveness of the UX 10 or the GINGA.

These are the ones I recall right now.
Suisin
 
tcmx3 said:
?

the whole point of a forum like this is to discuss the minutiae. if you're looking for lighter fair, there's this youtube channel called burrfection it sounds perfect for you
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I know, someone must have taken a dump in his cereal this morning.
 
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tcmx3 said:
?

the whole point of a forum like this is to discuss the minutiae. if you're looking for lighter fair, there's this youtube channel called burrfection it sounds perfect for you
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Hm. Must’ve struck a chord with you. I guess you also share in the sentiment that discussing minutiae has to be accompanied by an inflated sense of self. Duly noted 😎
 
Guys don't encourage him, he has the right to feel however he want's and be however he wants to be. I really don't want the mods closing this post, I really like the way it was going, if it makes him feel good to treat people like **** whatever, I don't think anyone here really cares about it.
 
memorael said:
This is exactly what I was asking, what your experience in using the steels is. I too find blue super gets "toothier" which is what I interpret as sharp. I think some people interpreted what I said as white steel and other blue steels not getting crazy sharp, they do, but when the actual cutting happens I know for a fact the steel feels different. Some examples in my experience are as follows:
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This is a good point. What we perceive as sharper doesn't have to be in an absolute sense of the word or in reality. It is well documented and has been probably experienced by many that very sharp, polished edges can feel less sharp, but be very sharp in reality. For example, you can have an objectively sharp edge that easily shaves that struggles to cut tomato skins. It is not unreasonable to end up with more polished edges when using same stones and techniques on lower alloyed steels vs higher alloyed steels. I too have experienced blue super, 1.2562, bulat, Haburn grey steel, and other higher alloyed steels feeling toothier than simpler steels. They might not be sharper in absolute terms, but they feel sharper to me and act sharper when cutting some items. The only true way to tell if they are or not would be to use something like a BESS tester. Another problem that we face when comparing knives made out of different steels is that we are comparing knives that are different in many ways besides the steel. The perceived differences are not necessarily due to steel, but could be something else.
 
tcmx3 said:
how have you managed to miss that my post was in defense of your thread?
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Sorry I was trying to answer to the other guy that wrote I didn't know what I was talking about. I'm still kinda in shock. My apologies.
 
Not much really. Will depend a lot on HT. And even less of a difference when applied to knives - you pay for a whole package and not just a slab of steel. I also assume the kanji are different on the wrapping blue paper.
 
Barmoley said:
This is a good point. What we perceive as sharper doesn't have to be in an absolute sense of the word or in reality. It is well documented and has been probably experienced by many that very sharp, polished edges can feel less sharp, but be very sharp in reality. For example, you can have an objectively sharp edge that easily shaves that struggles to cut tomato skins. It is not unreasonable to end up with more polished edges when using same stones and techniques on lower alloyed steels vs higher alloyed steels. I too have experienced blue super, 1.2562, bulat, Haburn grey steel, and other higher alloyed steels feeling toothier than simpler steels. They might not be sharper in absolute terms, but they feel sharper to me and act sharper when cutting some items. The only true way to tell if they are or not would be to use something like a BESS tester. Another problem that we face when comparing knives made out of different steels is that we are comparing knives that are different in many ways besides the steel. The perceived differences are not necessarily due to steel, but could be something else.
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This is exactly my point. I guess saying something is sharp could be defined as something that reaches an apex and gets really small, so its sharp, but then again if I understand correctly, a knife cuts by having small protrusions that work like a saw. So in a sense a perfectly flat edge that reaches a really small apex isn't necessarily a good cutter but can be really sharp? Hope this makes sense.
 
memorael said:
Sorry I was trying to answer to the other guy that wrote I didn't know what I was talking about. I'm still kinda in shock. My apologies.
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no worries it happens; thanks for the clarification.
 
tcmx3 said:
no worries it happens; thanks for the clarification.
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Yeah sorry bro, it just caught me so off guard, felt like I bit my own tongue. But now that that's clear what do you think about the different steels?
 
memorael said:
This is exactly my point. I guess saying something is sharp could be defined as something that reaches an apex and gets really small, so its sharp, but then again if I understand correctly, a knife cuts by having small protrusions that work like a saw. So in a sense a perfectly flat edge that reaches a really small apex isn't necessarily a good cutter but can be really sharp? Hope this makes sense.
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This reminds me of this. I link to Larrin's work a lot, because he makes sense to me 🤷‍♂️
 
Short and realistic answer from the user perspective: An almost surely indiscernible difference, though many hobbyists pretend they can tell.
Factually from a chemical makeup perspective: Less than 0.5% carbon difference between all three, with an equally small difference in Tungsten.

Some will chime in and say they can tell the difference on stones or in restaurant use because they do more cuts than the home cooks. Data suggests that's beyond unlikely and more than likely a function of cutting technique and psychology.
 
memorael said:
Yeah sorry bro, it just caught me so off guard, felt like I bit my own tongue. But now that that's clear what do you think about the different steels?
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HT is also very important. Toyama blue 2 is very toothy and long-lasting to me. I actually like it better than most blue 1s I've tried. I usually finish it on some mid-to-high grit Jnat or just Chosera 3000. TF AS is also a great example of well HTed steel. I recently bought a Moritaka AS and a Hinoura AS just to see if it's TF's magic HT or it's the AS steel itself. I'll find out soon.
 
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memorael said:
This is exactly my point. I guess saying something is sharp could be defined as something that reaches an apex and gets really small, so its sharp, but then again if I understand correctly, a knife cuts by having small protrusions that work like a saw. So in a sense a perfectly flat edge that reaches a really small apex isn't necessarily a good cutter but can be really sharp? Hope this makes sense.
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As a Chinese cleaver guy, I come at this from a different perspective. When I started using good J-knives, I had to learn to make much more of a slicing motion, or they would not cut properly. I can easily believe that that works as you say, like a little saw.

But with a cleaver, if you're not doing the fast up-and-down chopping thing, you're cutting with a small amount of forward/back motion, a tiny fraction of the motion you'd use with a knife. The weight does a lot of the work, and especially so with the 480-580g cleavers I use most of the time. I can imagine that that would upend the judgment about steels, but I don't really know.
 
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