Discourse on why I love Chinese Cleavers re-post

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This is a great thread with good info.

I had a cheap $10 Kiwi 6 inch Thai cleaver for a while and found that it cuts, chops, slices and dices. I beat the hell out of it. the steel is soft and sharpening is simple. I liked it enough that I tried using the cleaver instead of my gyuto and eventually ended up on this thread....... I've also been using a Takeda classic bunka, but could not control the tip. Its super thin. Dont have the skill for controlled tip work.

After reading through this thread and the help of BST - I just picked up a Takeda cleaver. I know its not a traditional Chinese cleaver and it has a wa handle (beefier then regular wa handles). Also, comes with a hefty price tag.

Been using it for a few days now in a home kitchen. I like not having a belly and getting used to the weight. Wanted to say thanks for this thread.

takeda.jpg
 
Who here has pretty good knife skills with a cleaver? I know Chinese chefs use the cleaver for about 90% of their work but I so rarely see any demonstrations using it. I do recall seeing some chefs break down larger cuts of pork etc with just a cleaver but can't recall exactly what they did. I feel like this is a question for Fuchsia Dunlop.

It would be great to see someone's skill in action.

Also, am I one of the few who like the wood scale handles best? Wa handles look funky to me and the rat tail ones on my CCK leave a little to be desired but I do really prefer the CCK profile vs chuka-bochos belly though. Just a little relief at the heel and tip is all I need.

The belly doesn't look too pronounced on the JCK Suien, anyone here have one to comment on?
 
Given the experts I've watched in China I'm sure not going to volunteer to show my knife skills! As for wood scale handles, I've noticed these tend to vary with the region in China. Around Chengdu in Sichuan flat wood scales on full tangs seemed to out number the more traditional round grips.
 
I finally remembered that I had a copy of Ken Hom's book "Chinese Technique" in my collection. This comes about as close to a manual of knife skills that I know of. May not be in print anymore but I bought mine used off Amazon.
 
Ken Hom's Chinese technique is a nice illustrative book to have. For something a bit more recent and easier to obtain, I think Kian Lam Kho's Pheonix claws and jade trees is quite nice.
 
Ken Hom's Chinese technique is a nice illustrative book to have. For something a bit more recent and easier to obtain, I think Kian Lam Kho's Pheonix claws and jade trees is quite nice.

thanks for the suggestion on the book. I do hope someone posts some videos on various ways to use the cleaver. I did see the Martin Yan vidoes wher he shows off some skills.

I've been using only the cleaver everyday just to learn, but it would be helpful to see a vidoe or 2.
 
Ken Hom's Chinese technique is a nice illustrative book to have. For something a bit more recent and easier to obtain, I think Kian Lam Kho's Pheonix claws and jade trees is quite nice.

I have Kain Lam's book too. It is a good basic Chinese manual but I thought it was a little weak on cleaver skills. In fact, he uses a western chef knife in most of the cutting skills section.
 
Here's a series of Martin Yan, at least it is fun to watch.

[video=youtube;HV8FPk5qN9k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV8FPk5qN9k[/video]
[video=youtube;5-UUWWig-pU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-UUWWig-pU[/video]
[video=youtube;0kB_Gl_8v-4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kB_Gl_8v-4[/video]
 
[video=youtube;vVHO1JY4Vc8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVHO1JY4Vc8[/video]
 
that chicken boning technique is awesome. He never really explains how he does it, have to slow the vid down.
 
I quite like my little borderline-fragile slicer...1.8mm at the spine. It was reasonably thin when new, but I made it thinner by the edge. V-Toku core is very hard.

9tgkMVx.jpg
 
that chicken boning technique is awesome. He never really explains how he does it, have to slow the vid down.

I've done it that way before and its a neat trick, but unless you lossen up each bird before hand id say its not very efficient if you are doing a lot.
 
Yeah, MY is a showman. I heard his accent is another marketing gimmick just like Gilbert Gottfried's voice is.
 
I've had some requests to re-post my "Discourse on Why I Love Chinese Cleavers" post from 7 years ago on KF. So take a stroll down memory lane and enjoy! Maybe we can convert a few more to the fold. Oh and by the way, I figured I'd re-post my cleaver technique post from back then too. Keep in mind I never claimed to be an expert, I just love using cleavers and watched a lot of the original Iron Chef. :biggrin: Without further ado, here are the posts.
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I know many people out there wonder why I am so fond of chinese cleavers. Some people recently have had some questions on the subject so I not-so-briefly put it into words.

First let me get this out of the way. Chinese cleavers just look really cool. I mean come on, who doesn't like the look of a shiny 9"x4" razor sharp piece of metal. Everytime I use one I feel like I'm in the back alleys of chinatown cutting the heads off ducks. Is that enough to love cleavers? No. Secondly I prefer a light thin vegetable cleaver that is what I'll be discussing.

In my ever so humble opinion chinese cleavers shouldn't be rocked. At least not in the sense of keeping the tip of the knife always on the board. If you try to use a cleaver the way you use a chef's knife with the tip never leaving the board you will be left thinking "why heck am I using this giant clumsy cumbersome knife, my gyuto is so much better" and you would be right. Is there some rocking involved in using one? Of course. I think there are three style of cut in which the cleaver excels: 1) the usaba or push cut. 2) the straight up and down chop with one end just barely leading and the other, landing a split second thereafter for a slight rock at the end (Iron Chef Chen Kenichi is the master of this when you see his machine gun chop it looks like a wild flayling but if you slow it down it is very accurate and deliberate.) 3) What I like to call the "stab and drag" technique, which is leaving the tip of the cleaver on the board and having the blade at a 35 degree angle to the board, then you just drag the cleaver and slice whatever is in it's path.

Why do cleavers cut so great? I think one element is the fact that they can have the weight of a german knife (or more) with the super thin blade profile of a japanese knife. The best of both worlds in a sense. This is why I think that a $20 chinatown clever cuts better in many ways than a $100 german knife. The weight of the knife does all the cutting you just need to lift it up and guide it as it falls. The super thin blade allows them to cut much better than any german knife could. When I cut a tomato with a cleaver I just set the edge on the skin and push forward, with never a thought of pushing down, and it cuts like butter.

Sometimes when doing many thin cuts with the tip of a chef's knife you have to exert because of the leverage constraint. In my opinion any time you exert you sacrifice accuracy. On a cleaver you have 4 inches of steel backing the tip up. Thin japanese gyutos are much better in this regard but you get the idea.

In an odd way I feel I have more control with a cleaver. Some may say that the large size is dificult to manage. I would disagree. With the big square cleaver I know where all of the knife is at all times. I'm never going to get caught by a stray tip because the knife turned. It's similar to the fact that you would have to go out of your way to be hit by a bus, you see it coming from a mile away. There is a larger margin of error when cutting with the middle knuckle parallel to the blade. With a normal knife as I put my knuckle paralell I can't lift the blade too high or I could cut myself but if I lift my finger too high it will be over the top of the spine. With the cleaver the sky is the limit as to how far I can lift. I raise my knuckle just above the product and I have 4 inches of leeway before my knuckle is over or under the knife.

Also when doing super fine delicate cuts where I need lots of control I use my 3 fingers and thumb to hold the product and I lift my index finger and place the fingertip on the side of the cleaver 2 or 3 inches away from the edge. I leave my finger in the same spot and lift it up and down with the knife. This technique is what I used when cutting the potato fans I did a while back. It was super fast and very easy to be accurate with each cut. Try doing that with a chef's knife.

My perfect cleaver would be large 22-24cm, wide 10-12cm, and as thin as possible. For a cleaver that size the weight should fall between 400-475g. However, the more I have used my Watanabe cleaver (which weighs in at 520g) the more I really don't mind the extra weight. The other day I chopped with it for 30 minutes and wasn't fatigued. I just need to remember to let the cleaver do all the work. Most of the high end Japanese made cleavers fall between 500-550g which I have started to shy away from, but I may rethink that and give them more of a chance.

I also don't need as much curve as most. A perfectly straight edge is definetly a No. All you need is a slight curve for the cleaver to fall smoothly and not jarringly like happens with a perfectly flat edge. In my opinion if the middle of the edge is on the board the two ends should lift up only 4 or 5mm to be effective. More curve is acceptable as well, the ends on the Watanabe for instance probably lift 7 or 8mm.

Recently I have had a chance to use a couple cleavers with longer handles. It is really growing on me. I can say I prefer that style.

Since the car analogy is so popular I'll continue it. Some would compare a chinese cleaver to a truck and a thin graceful gyuto to a Porche. I however, would argue that a good chinese cleaver is much like a Bently, bigger than most sports cars but faster, smoother and more maneuverable than many in the lot. (I'm no car expert but you know what I mean.)
me and you share the passion for them Chinese cleavers if you have a good video on how to use it properly please send me
 
when do you guys use the heel section of your vegetable cleaver ?
i find myself never using it
 

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