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Is it a myth or not that double beveled Japanese knives(Santoku, Sujihiki, Gyuto, etc) are Japanese in design, but of western origin? I.E. did they take western knives and alter them through a Japanese lens, or were these independent developments?
 
that kind of thing has a bit more merit... a lot of interesting things happened during the meiji restoration (1868-1912)... much of this time period was about japan going out into the world and learning about how other countries did things. They adapted educational systems, military systems, clothing systems, etc. Knives were also greatly influenced. Specifically, gyuto, sujihiki, petty knife, etc. Santoku and nakairi are less clear to me and i would be overzealous to say anything with 100% confidence here.
 
Great thread Jon. I've been fascinated by Japanese culture since my early teens, and it's very refreshing having a western mind disseminating said culture in an informative and unbiased manner.
 
BurkeCutlery said:
Is it a myth or not that double beveled Japanese knives(Santoku, Sujihiki, Gyuto, etc) are Japanese in design, but of western origin? I.E. did they take western knives and alter them through a Japanese lens, or were these independent developments?
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Didn't you say that santoku was was introduced after WWII to Japanese house-wives as a way of being more Western in their kitchen? Prior to this, Japanese knives were single-purposed, and satoku was marketed to them as being multi-purpose, more like the Westerners use? Santoku being three treasures or merits - I've seen/heard them dubbed as chop, dice and slice, but that sounds stupid to me, as all three of these tasks are related and can be done w/ a usuba, etc. Vegetable, fish and meat seems more appropriate as these three traditionally required three (or more) specific knives (usuba, deba, yanagiba, honesuki & honkatsu).
 
BurkeCutlery said:
Is it a myth or not that double beveled Japanese knives(Santoku, Sujihiki, Gyuto, etc) are Japanese in design, but of western origin? I.E. did they take western knives and alter them through a Japanese lens, or were these independent developments?
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I'm referring two renowned Japanese books for the comment I'm about to make here...

According to the books, Deba and nakiri used to be around for every house hold for a long long time.. then from around Meiji Restoration, wa-gyuto, santoku etc (primarily double bevel knives) have become more popular among home cooks, and eventually replaced deba and nakiri (once again, at home kitchens, not in professional environments). This indicates some double bevel knives have been around....

FYI: regarding their design, in most cases, santoku and nakiri are categorized as wa bocho, and sujihiki is yo bocho...
 
mpukas said:
Didn't you say that santoku was was introduced after WWII to Japanese house-wives as a way of being more Western in their kitchen? Prior to this, Japanese knives were single-purposed, and satoku was marketed to them as being multi-purpose, more like the Westerners use? Santoku being three treasures or merits - I've seen/heard them dubbed as chop, dice and slice, but that sounds stupid to me, as all three of these tasks are related and can be done w/ a usuba, etc. Vegetable, fish and meat seems more appropriate as these three traditionally required three (or more) specific knives (usuba, deba, yanagiba, honesuki & honkatsu).
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That is how I've understood it on all counts(except it was prior to WWII IIRC, just post globalization). I guess I stated it in a strange way, but just wanted exactly the kind of clarification that Sara and Jon have provided. A lot of times, you see Gyutos being explained as being different from a Chef's and they get credit for their origins being in the Katana. But it has been my understanding, and it seems re-affirmed here, that the Gyuto is a Western knife concept(the hard-use, low maintenance, all-rounder design) processed through the Japanese knife making mindset--like a cover version of a song that is better than the original. Nothing to do with weapons.

I did not know, however, that the Nakiri is a Japanese double bevel design. That is interesting, I did not know they ever made a double bevel independently.
 
Sara@JKI said:
FYI: regarding their design, in most cases, santoku and nakiri are categorized as wa bocho, and sujihiki is yo bocho...
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Thanks for the info Sara.

In the case above, "wa" meaning "Japanese style" and "yo" meaning "Western style", regardless of handle style? What is gyuto - wa bocho or yo bocho? And, does the term "gyuto" come from - is there any relation to cow?

I'm curious about the origins and intended uses of double bevel knives, as they are (except now for nakiri) what I call non-traditional (as opposed to traditional knives, those being single bevel and developed in Japan for specific uses/tasks). It seems, as Eamon pointed out, that <most> double bevel knives are Japanese interpretations of Western knives. Thanks!
 
wa and yo can describe both both handle and blade style. However, naming things can be a bit more complicated due to trying to make things sound good. For example wa-gyuto is clearly a yo-bocho with a wa-handle. But no one calls a yanagiba with a western handle yo-yanagiba (maybe because its so uncommon).
 
I will like to add something about Jnats :D

Many think that sword stones or sword polishing is same as knife polishing, but in fact that is very very different things !
They have to use very different stones as steel is much softer then on our knives ! Stones they need to have very little cutting power and be very different shape.

Many sword smith is NOT sword polishers so dont think that is you are sword smith you have to be good at sharpening things or polish it !
 
jackslimpson said:
Great thread.

I eat chicken and fish; I break down whole chicken and fish. If I thought it was ok to use one knife for both tasks, I would have one knife for them. Therefore, I like this rule, one knife for fish, another for chicken, because it allows me to get ANOTHER KNIFE. More rules, more knives.

Rationalizatingly yours,

Jack
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+10
 
Interesting some history of Japan Gyuto's.I always thought that the more traditional Japan Gyuto is drop nose wt. flatter edge profile.Like the Takagi Honyaki Gyuto, Kamagata Usuba,& the Santoku.The Santoku is a good design for tight spaces.

I also like the looks of the Kiritsuke tho I have never used one.I may end up wt. one of these yet.What kind either the Gyuto double bevel or the more pricy true carbon single bevel hollow grind Kiritsuki.
 
maxim said:
I will like to add something about Jnats :D

Many think that sword stones or sword polishing is same as knife polishing, but in fact that is very very different things !
They have to use very different stones as steel is much softer then on our knives ! Stones they need to have very little cutting power and be very different shape.

Many sword smith is NOT sword polishers so dont think that is you are sword smith you have to be good at sharpening things or polish it !
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Yeeeeees! Thank you for adding that!
 
This is one of the best knife threads I read in the last ten years.
 
Myth- Deba is for hacking off fish heads and other similar techniques

Truth- Deba is for taking off fish heads, but the technique is anything but hacking. Deba is not built for the kind of crazy abuse people seem to think it is (due to the blade thickness and heft i would guess. It does hold up to cutting through fish bones, but its also important to use proper and clean technique. See here:

[video=youtube;NrBjgFfeo4A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrBjgFfeo4A&feature=plcp[/video]

[video=youtube;Ox2wgKuV_X0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox2wgKuV_X0&feature=plcp[/video]

[video=youtube;JmCzfeiqjj4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmCzfeiqjj4&feature=plcp[/video]

Notice that none of the above videos feature rough or careless technique with the knife. While deba is thick, it doesnt mean its abuse friendly.

On a similar note, i see many people looking for cheaper debas and significantly softer steels. Many people do this because they think deba is just a knife for rough use in breaking down things. Cheaper debas feature many of the same problems other cheap single bevel knives do... poor grind on the ura, poor grind on the bevel, significant warping problems, poor heat treatment. I'm not against being budget friendly, but i am of the mind that it is necessary to buy a good tool that does its job well over saving some money and buying a tool that doesnt do the job as well. Just like other single bevel knives, white #2 and #1 and blue #2 and #1 are the best carbon options from japan. White #2 works better for beginners and people who value ease of sharpening. Blue #1 works best for those who are skilled with the knife and value edge retention. Softer steels (SK steel and sub-par white #3) will not hold an edge well enough, and deba does require a good edge to be able to do its job well. Its not just there to hack things up.
 
Are debas sharpened to the same level of acuteness as yanagibas and usubas?

Is the heel of debas sometimes sharpened with a lower angle, and possibly a micro-bevel, so the heel portion is used for tougher taskes and the tip is used for finer tasks?
 
They arent sharpened to the same acute angle, as the blade is thicker so the angle is less acute. However, many chefs use the same finishing stone on their deba as they do on their yanagiba (something in the 4-6k range... sometimes 8k). Some chefs will use a back bevel (like a microbevel but on the ura) towards the heel of a deba. Most people use microbevel's along the entire edge. Also, not everyone uses the back bevel. The toughest task that knife will do is taking off the head and this is done by finding a joint between vertebrae, placing the knife gently there, putting your hand on the spine of the knife, and pressing firmly through it (without twisting)... not harsh at all.
 
JBroida said:
They arent sharpened to the same acute angle, as the blade is thicker so the angle is less acute. However, many chefs use the same finishing stone on their deba as they do on their yanagiba (something in the 4-6k range... sometimes 8k). Some chefs will use a back bevel (like a microbevel but on the ura) towards the heel of a deba. Most people use microbevel's along the entire edge. Also, not everyone uses the back bevel. The toughest task that knife will do is taking off the head and this is done by finding a joint between vertebrae, placing the knife gently there, putting your hand on the spine of the knife, and pressing firmly through it (without twisting)... not harsh at all.
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Jon, if you aren't careful you're going to leave people with the impression that you know what you're talking about. :)

Very interesting thread, thanks!
 
Myth: Every single japanese citizen have a vast knowledge about kitchen cutlery since the day theyre born.
 
bieniek said:
Myth: Every single japanese citizen have a vast knowledge about kitchen cutlery since the day theyre born.
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lol

Truth: Most japanese people dont even know the name of the style of knife they use. Nakiri, santoku, and petty are most common (in the 165mm size and under) as is deba. Also, lately, german knives have become popular in home kitchens for ease of care and lack of skill required to be able to be used. Very few people know how to sharpen. Most people dont even know a lot of the vocabulary we use here on a daily basis (uraoshi, kamagata usuba, koba, machi, etc.)

The vast majority of what we talk about here are professional knives used in professional kitchens in japan or knives specifically designed for the western market.
 
JBroida said:
lol

Truth: Most japanese people dont even know the name of the style of knife they use. Nakiri, santoku, and petty are most common (in the 165mm size and under) as is deba. Also, lately, german knives have become popular in home kitchens for ease of care and lack of skill required to be able to be used. Very few people know how to sharpen. Most people dont even know a lot of the vocabulary we use here on a daily basis (uraoshi, kamagata usuba, koba, machi, etc.)

The vast majority of what we talk about here are professional knives used in professional kitchens in japan or knives specifically designed for the western market.
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I have a Japanese employee and this is exactly what I have discovered in my discussions with him over the last couple of weeks. He knows "gyuto" and that's it.
 
MYTH:
A Samurai can turn an entire case of artichokes with one swing of his Katana.
 
JBroida said:
Truth: Most japanese people dont even know the name of the style of knife they use. Nakiri, santoku, and petty are most common (in the 165mm size and under) as is deba. Also, lately, german knives have become popular in home kitchens for ease of care and lack of skill required to be able to be used. Very few people know how to sharpen. Most people dont even know a lot of the vocabulary we use here on a daily basis (uraoshi, kamagata usuba, koba, machi, etc.) The vast majority of what we talk about here are professional knives used in professional kitchens in japan or knives specifically designed for the western market
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Very true! First, you see plenty of German knives around there. Maybe sometimes they're seen as foreign and therefore possibly better/more interesting/different? Psychology, I guess. Meanwhile, things like the Henckels Made in Japan Miyabi line seem pretty common - and so ironic, a Western company selling Japanese knives back to the Japanese.

Yes, if you go talking about kurouchi/hagane/jigane/santoku/yanagiba, etc, to the average Japanese they will be bemused, not really know what in the world you're on about, and find it odd a foreigner would know and care about such things. Even in knife shops they might be surprised.

Also, I'd say there's no special reverence for knives amongst the general public there. Just as elsewhere, knives are just things you need and not really interesting, and not something to spend much time or money on. Kitchen tools. Although sometimes nice knives are also seen as a good gift.
 
JBroida said:
lol

Truth: Most japanese people dont even know the name of the style of knife they use. Nakiri, santoku, and petty are most common (in the 165mm size and under) as is deba. Also, lately, german knives have become popular in home kitchens for ease of care and lack of skill required to be able to be used. Very few people know how to sharpen. Most people dont even know a lot of the vocabulary we use here on a daily basis (uraoshi, kamagata usuba, koba, machi, etc.)

The vast majority of what we talk about here are professional knives used in professional kitchens in japan or knives specifically designed for the western market.
Click to expand...

yes, true... especially among younger people (including my generation). I must admit some of my friends even had knives from 100 yen shop (Japanese version of 99c store).
 
Sara@JKI said:
yes, true... especially among younger people (including my generation). I must admit some of my friends even had knives from 100 yen shop (Japanese version of 99c store).
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i know...i remember seeing them when you were in college :p
 
Another one i just discovered :) Thick spine knifes will always wedge in vegetables and lasers will not
 
I have a question that's been bugging me for a while:

For traditional Japanese, single beveled carbon steel knives, why do people use such a reactive steel for the jigane? Wouldn't it make sense to use a stainless steel for the jigane and keep, say, white #2 for the hagane? It would seem like the most "Duh" thing to do, but for some reason it's just not done. I'm assuming I'm totally missing a point on how these knives are made...
 
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