Do I want an 8k? If I do, which one?

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MrHiggins said:
That said, I hardly ever use it because the edge it creates is too refined for me.
When I do use it, I'll create the sharpest edge I can with it, then I'll drop down to a lower grit (like 3k) to create a little texture. This will create a very sharp, but potentially chippy, edge.
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Any idea what is causing the chippyness?
 
I had a Naniwa Snow White 8k and liked it. Got a Shapton Pro 8k and like it more and sold the Snow White. No real need for an 8k but they are fun to use on real hard(64+) or wear resistant steels.
 
Shapton ceramic S&G stones are good. I would teach touch up techniques on them instead of using steels taught before got there. When we would get students as free labor they would be wailing away on steels. When retired started teaching at culinary school. Cherry imports sold plenty green 2K my favorite. Student discount around 37.00.
 
By no means I'm an expert on stones but it is remarkable and interesting to see my take home messages thus far confirmed.
I have a huge Hideriyama that can do it all and creates a very nice edge, the SP 12K creates a razorlike edge and it is great to use, yet since I got the Rika 5K I rarely use anything else (1.2K SP to start).
(haven't taken the stupdily hard petty by Andrei to the stones)
 
Know I've said it before, the Gesshin 4K soaker is one of my all time favorite stones.

Looked at my review on his site was 2014 know had it at least a year when made review.
I'm on second one, not many stones can say that about. Perma soaked use it for my carbons & couple quality stainless R2 & Gensan. I have 8K Gesshin. 5K rika & 8K kitayama that used before retired. On rare occasion will use higher grit but really no need the 4K puts a great cutting edge on quality steel. He has quite a few in stock.
 
mpier said:
I’d through the Snow White in the ring as well, it’s a hard stone, fast cutter but needs to be sealed or it will crack, the kitayama has others have mentioned is soft and but sweet to use. I would suggest having at least one high grit stone in your collection, you will probably find you will use it more than you think.
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newbie here but how would one seal a stone?
 
riba said:
For me this is natural stone territory. I have a sg8k and naniwa ss 10k but rarely use them.
I prefer a coticule or a jnat (after a shapton pro1K or chosera 1K).
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basically my experience.

you dont need an expensive stone if you just want to do edges. plenty of nice Aiiwatanis floating around, the Oouchi from JKI, etc.
 
I picked up a Kitayama a couple years ago for the same reason. I wanted to recreate the edge on my Watanabe pro gyuto and I had read that he finishes his knives on a Kitayama. My sharpening skills were pretty bad at that point and I didn’t appreciate the stone at all. Then I got more proficient at sharpening and dug out the Kitayama again and it still took a lot more practice to get the best out of it.

Like others have said, the Kitayama 8000 is a weird stone. It doesn’t really behave like many other 8K stones. It leaves this kind of crisp, “sticky” feeling edge that just has a different kind of bite, I can’t really describe it well. I’ve read the Kitayama has natural stone powder mixed in and actually ranges from 8-12k in grit, so that maybe why, but I can’t confirm. And when used for a hybrid edge like Watanabe does with the SP1K + Kitayama 8K, it makes an edge that is very toothy and very refined at the same time which feels different from something like a 4k edge that has a nice balance of bite and refinement.

One of the potential downsides is practicality. Not many knives hold a Kitayama edge very well except really good carbon steels, although if you’re just cooking at home, this is less of a problem. For a lot of stainless, a Kitayama 8000 edge just feels a bit too slick sometimes. Wat/Toyama blue 2, Munetoshi white 2, Suien VC are some good ones that come to mind.

I find for best results getting a Kitayama edge that has that special “sticky” feeling while still having a lot of bite, soak it for a while or even overnight/permasoak, raise a slurry, do a few passes with light pressure, do some very light edge trailing/lateral stropping motions with the slurry still on the stone, then wash the slurry off and some final feather light lateral strokes on the stone without slurry. I like edge leading to finish a lot of the time, but it doesn’t work well with the Kitayama.

Do you need a Kitayama? Probably not. But it’s a unique stone that’s worth a try. There’s a reason professionals like Dave Martell, the sharpener at Korin and Watanabe and Toyama use it. Plus, at around $60, it’s on the cheaper side for an 8k stone and you can always resell it.
 
kpham12 said:
Do you need a Kitayama? Probably not. But it’s a unique stone that’s worth a try. There’s a reason professionals like Dave Martell, the sharpener at Korin and Watanabe and Toyama use it. Plus, at around $60, it’s on the cheaper side for an 8k stone and you can always resell it.
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Like @riba, I use natural stones to get that keen-but-toothy edge on good (Aizu) or really good (Nakayama or Shobu suita) carbon steel knives. But your description has me wanting a Kitayama 8000 anyway.
 
Rangen said:
Like @riba, I use natural stones to get that keen-but-toothy edge on good (Aizu) or really good (Nakayama or Shobu suita) carbon steel knives. But your description has me wanting a Kitayama 8000 anyway.
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Yeah, I have a small pocket sized Aizu I like for quick touch-ups, but a hybrid 1000 grit to Kitayama edge is something special. The angry bite of a low grit edge with the push cutting refinement of a high grit edge feels very nice going through food.
 
I can appreciate folks wanting to take steels to high levels of sharpness, polished edges. Had a 10,000 chosera that really would polish well.
But does it cut food better? Don't think so.

Many persons who if knife is trained over time only use one or two stones at most. Also you can after getting a burr use lighter pressure on one progression each side same angle with very light burr. Light strops also works. Like using a higher grit stone the edge get more refined.
 
mpier said:
I’d through the Snow White in the ring as well, it’s a hard stone, fast cutter but needs to be sealed or it will crack, the kitayama has others have mentioned is soft and but sweet to use. I would suggest having at least one high grit stone in your collection, you will probably find you will use it more than you think.
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It delivers some very fine bite. Even when all bite was gone after staying too long with a Chosera 5k. Must have to do with a mix of abrasive particles.
 
kpham12 said:
I picked up a Kitayama a couple years ago for the same reason. I wanted to recreate the edge on my Watanabe pro gyuto and I had read that he finishes his knives on a Kitayama. My sharpening skills were pretty bad at that point and I didn’t appreciate the stone at all. Then I got more proficient at sharpening and dug out the Kitayama again and it still took a lot more practice to get the best out of it.

Like others have said, the Kitayama 8000 is a weird stone. It doesn’t really behave like many other 8K stones. It leaves this kind of crisp, “sticky” feeling edge that just has a different kind of bite, I can’t really describe it well. I’ve read the Kitayama has natural stone powder mixed in and actually ranges from 8-12k in grit, so that maybe why, but I can’t confirm. And when used for a hybrid edge like Watanabe does with the SP1K + Kitayama 8K, it makes an edge that is very toothy and very refined at the same time which feels different from something like a 4k edge that has a nice balance of bite and refinement.

One of the potential downsides is practicality. Not many knives hold a Kitayama edge very well except really good carbon steels, although if you’re just cooking at home, this is less of a problem. For a lot of stainless, a Kitayama 8000 edge just feels a bit too slick sometimes. Wat/Toyama blue 2, Munetoshi white 2, Suien VC are some good ones that come to mind.

I find for best results getting a Kitayama edge that has that special “sticky” feeling while still having a lot of bite, soak it for a while or even overnight/permasoak, raise a slurry, do a few passes with light pressure, do some very light edge trailing/lateral stropping motions with the slurry still on the stone, then wash the slurry off and some final feather light lateral strokes on the stone without slurry. I like edge leading to finish a lot of the time, but it doesn’t work well with the Kitayama.

Do you need a Kitayama? Probably not. But it’s a unique stone that’s worth a try. There’s a reason professionals like Dave Martell, the sharpener at Korin and Watanabe and Toyama use it. Plus, at around $60, it’s on the cheaper side for an 8k stone and you can always resell it.
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I can confirm exactly what you write here.

Leaves a very special edge ( I havent used naturals to compare). Sticky drag on your nail: keen and razorsharp, but with lots of bite.
Carbon (white/blue) hold that edge for a long time. My stainless AUS10 doesnt. The bite leaves and you have an slick, toothless edge left.

I can also feel the 'different' gritt particles in the kitayama while sharpening.

I like the stone very much
 
Bought first quality Yanagiba 20 years ago from Korin in NYC. My second was from Takeshi of A Frames. He was single then sold knives out of his house back of Palolo valley. Still working in Japanese sushi place. He brought out a bunch of Japanese knives I was in heaven never had seen so many different fine Japanese knives.

I wanted to see his yanagiba sharpening technique. So he showed me on a yellow stone with wooden base. Asked him what stone he was using, it was a kitayama. So I bought one my SB fish knives were razor sharp with that stone. Takeshi has a walk in store now selling various Japanese knives & other goods.
 
For 8k I would choose between Kitayama and Shapton Pro 8k. I prefer the Shapton since I don't do kasumi etc. In my opinion the Shapton is harder which I prefer.
 
I almost exclusively use my Kitayama for my Yanagiba as part of my full progression sharpening routine I also have one in house Fillet knife I keep at a high polish for fish. The only other thing I use it for is refurbishing and it has been great for that.
 
Keith Sinclair said:
I can appreciate folks wanting to take steels to high levels of sharpness, polished edges. Had a 10,000 chosera that really would polish well.
But does it cut food better? Don't think so.

Many persons who if knife is trained over time only use one or two stones at most. Also you can after getting a burr use lighter pressure on one progression each side same angle with very light burr. Light strops also works. Like using a higher grit stone the edge get more refined.
Click to expand...
Keith Sinclair said:
Bought first quality Yanagiba 20 years ago from Korin in NYC. My second was from Takeshi of A Frames. He was single then sold knives out of his house back of Palolo valley. Still working in Japanese sushi place. He brought out a bunch of Japanese knives I was in heaven never had seen so many different fine Japanese knives.

I wanted to see his yanagiba sharpening technique. So he showed me on a yellow stone with wooden base. Asked him what stone he was using, it was a kitayama. So I bought one my SB fish knives were razor sharp with that stone. Takeshi has a walk in store now selling various Japanese knives & other goods.
Click to expand...

For practical use at work, I’ve been leaning on big carbon cleavers lately (one of which I recently ordered from Takeshi 😃) and I’ll usually take them anywhere from 1000-4000 depending on what I’m doing that day and a more polished edge is better suited for push cutting. The difference is pretty small overall and the majority of people won’t notice, but it’s there. Also polishing the core steel/area behind the edge of the cleaver to nearly mirror, which the Kitayama is great at, helps it move through food, although actual edge itself is kept at 1-4K.

Here’s a good example I found a while back, their caption does a better job of explaining it than me:

 
HumbleHomeCook said:
an 8k
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so are you getting any closer to deciding on which one you want?

you probably can't go wrong whichever high grit you choose.

personally i think the soft resinoids like the imanishi 10k and my kitayama 4k, (and i guess the kit 8k is the same, and also made by imanishi) are just a bit worse than the other types overall. when there are so many other really good high grit stones out there i mean.
 
inferno said:
so are you getting any closer to deciding on which one you want?

you probably can't go wrong whichever high grit you choose.

personally i think the soft resinoids like the imanishi 10k and my kitayama 4k, (and i guess the kit 8k is the same, and also made by imanishi) are just a bit worse than the other types overall. when there are so many other really good high grit stones out there i mean.
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I haven't yet no. One of the good things to come from this thread is it got me to thinking that it is entirely possible that I'd only put stainless knives on the SG4k so by the time I dove into carbons, I may have already turned away from the higher grit finish. I last finished my R2 Kurosaki on the 4k and found it way too slick so because of this thread, I've take back to a coarser finish. I only got it a few weeks ago but wanted to give the 4k another chance and wanted to see how this steel reacted. I will now also take one of my carbons and put it on the 4k and see how I feel about the edge.

In other words, I may have a falsely earned negative perception of the higher grit finish due to only using stainless that doesn't respond as well to it.

If I do find I like the higher grit on my carbons, I'm currently intrigued by the SG8k, Kitayama, and SP8k.

For now, I'm back into a research loop but armed with better knowledge and a renewed open mind.
 
what are your finishing strokes on the r2 and 4k?

on my glass 4k i do alternating "sweeps" (like in the bob kramer vid on utube. but quite light pressure, not overly light though), sweeps like a fan shape, heel to tip, edge leading. stone at 45 deg angle tilt to the right. maybe 10-15 on each side, and my r2/srs15 etc feels ultra aggressive after that. no problems on tomatos etc. its just falls though.
 
i would recommend either the glass 8k white or the pro8k. they are probably the most allround ones. and also best suited for high carbide steels.

i took a microtech s30v folder from 120 or 220 shapton pro straight to the shapton pro 12k. in about 5 minutes or so. so it definitely works on those steels. and it was almost "mirror polished" then (some stray scratches). these are fast stones.
 
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