Do Kitchen Knives Need Distal Taper?

[MSicardCutlery]

This is a serious question that popped into my head earlier today. Just kinda looking to kick some thoughts around. Assuming a blade is already <3mm thick with a wide bevel, It just strikes me that it might be a mostly superfluous feature beyond balance.

 

[Matt Jacobs]

I would agree with you on knives say 2.5 or less. It might be beneficial for me to not have distal on a thin stock knife as I prefer forward balance.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

No. Just ask my nakiris.

 

[Calvinlicious]

Needed no. I use old school Sabatiers for my main knives. If I'm doing a high end dinner or if I'm staging in a restaurant I am going to want distal taper. I need to be able go from obliquing carrots to brunoise shallots without switching knives.

 

[Vertigo]

I'm a big fan of distal taper, but I'm a "one knife for 90% of my job" guy. I get to work, pull out my 290 KS with extreme distal taper, my 210 Kagekiyo utility knife, and it's gonna take a miracle for me to get back into that bag. Having a primary knife that can do intricate tip work and heavy duty heel work is clutch.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Does the grind portion of the tip below the spine count as distal taper? I think that's important but taper along the entire length maybe not so much.

 

[Dave]

I don't think so. I certainly think you need taper into a fine tip, but distal taper on the whole blade is not a necessity.

 

[M1k3]

Not important, if the grind in the front portion is thin enough.

 

[Barmoley]

Knives with thicker choil and spine around choil are more comfortable to hold in pinch grip. On knives that are already thin you probably wouldn’t want much if any distal taper. As others have said it also helps for one knife to cover multiple roles. Knives with distal taper usually feel better in general, not sure why, maybe balance, but it seems balance is easier to deal with without distal taper. In general though if you want forward balance and somewhat thicker knives for more convex or whatever then you need some distal taper for useable tip and reasonable balance.

 

[Blumbo]

I don’t think it’s necessary for function. It’s somewhat more comfortable to pinch grip a thicker spine, but having the whole knife be thick is bad for function so distal taper negotiates comfort and performance. I think aesthetically there’s something satisfying about it as well though.

 

[aporigine]

This is a guess, but distal taper allows for a lighter but still strong blade. It also tends to have its center of mass right in/under the pinch grip (assuming an average handle) conferring a sense of nimbleness.

 

[blokey]

In strictly need bases probably no, some of the stamped knives have no tapers and they are fine. But on this forum we are really not talking about need are we?

 

[panda]

This is a serious question that popped into my head earlier today. Just kinda looking to kick some thoughts around. Assuming a blade is already <3mm thick with a wide bevel, It just strikes me that it might be a mostly superfluous feature beyond balance.

I've tried aggressive taper ones and decided it's a novelty feature, not actually beneficial for a gyuto. but a gradual taper is certainly good to have for aiding in smooth cutting on horizontal axis. like a convex but going sideways.

kato are a good example.

 

[sumis]

no.

.

 

[gentiscid]

They do not necessarily need tapering (Sakai), but once you get one or two and u get used to them, its hard to go back to no taper. I blame Mazaki for this lol.

 

[Calvinlicious]

I've tried aggressive taper ones and decided it's a novelty feature, not actually beneficial for a gyuto. but a gradual taper is certainly good to have for aiding in smooth cutting on horizontal axis. like a convex but going sideways.

kato are a good example.

I use a old nogent with an aggressive taper for deboning chickens. The utla thin tip give just the perfect amount of flex. If you have ever tried skinning the fat off chicken skin for skin crackers you have to flex your knife to almost flush with the board. If you leave too much fast on he skin it doesn't get crispy. So I wouldn't say novelty. Just beneficial in certain situations.

 

[Uncle Danny]

I like a big taper, as I hold the knife mainly around the neck and only uses the last 1/4 of the handle. My knives are heavy knives, around 300 gram, so it also helps with stability in use. Can’t say, if I would find a wide neck just as useful, if it was on a semi work horse aka lighter knife. That, and aesthetics.

 

[stringer]

It isn't necessary. Kind of like a rounded choil. I see it as mostly about comfort. My most used knife of all time is a factory Kanehide 240 with no distal taper. My number one complaint about it is that the spine is too thin in the pinch.

You can still have a knife that is versatile in terms of having a chonky choil and a thin tip without any distal taper. You just change the grind that way.

 

[MSicardCutlery]

Does the grind portion of the tip below the spine count as distal taper? I think that's important but taper along the entire length maybe not so much.

I suppose it could, but that's not what I had in mind so much as the taper prior to the primary bevel.

In strictly need bases probably no, some of the stamped knives have no tapers and they are fine. But on this forum we are really not talking about need are we?

Fair enough.

Thanks for all the replies.

The reason I'm asking is that I've wanted to make low bevel knives for a while, but my only real forging equipment is a press, and that just doesn't work for forging stuff<2mm thick or tapers of 1mm-1.5mm over a blade length, but looking at some of the low bevel Japanese knives, and Raquin's knives, it strikes me that there isn't always a noticeable amount of taper and that if ~2mm is an acceptable spine thickness, I can possibly pull it off. Having said that, on first consideration it set off alarm bells in my mind because, well, I just finished my 301st knife on Thursday, and of those 301 maybe 10 have been what I would consider to be heavier/WH type knives. So this is new territory to me, the grinding "philosophy" let's say, is very different than what I've essentially built myself on.

 

[gentiscid]

My number one complaint about it is that the spine is too thin in the pinch.

Had a Global that when not sharp enough and cutting with it would hurt my palmar aspect of the index finger in a pinch grip, almost blistering it.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I suppose it could, but that's not what I had in mind so much as the taper prior to the primary bevel.

Fair enough.

Thanks for all the replies.

The reason I'm asking is that I've wanted to make low bevel knives for a while, but my only real forging equipment is a press, and that just doesn't work for forging stuff<2mm thick or tapers of 1mm-1.5mm over a blade length, but looking at some of the low bevel Japanese knives, and Raquin's knives, it strikes me that there isn't always a noticeable amount of taper and that if ~2mm is an acceptable spine thickness, I can possibly pull it off. Having said that, on first consideration it set off alarm bells in my mind because, well, I just finished my 301st knife on Thursday, and of those 301 maybe 10 have been what I would consider to be heavier/WH type knives. So this is new territory to me, the grinding "philosophy" let's say, is very different than what I've essentially built myself on.

Find your elbows then look down. There's your forging equipment! You're young, you can do it.



2mm is the absolute minimum in terms of finger comfort. Even that, as others have noted, can be challenging over longer sessions. I have one knife that is less the 2mm and it is uncomfortable to use.

 

[Corradobrit1]

DT? Absolutely. I want a thicker robust blade at the heel, getting progressively thinner at midpoint and with a slicey tip for dicing onions and finer more precise cuts. There have been quite a few chonk geometries recently with zero DT and all that does is add unnecessary weight and forward balance. It looks bad too. Some makers go to the other extreme and thats not appealing either.

Nakiri's get a pass.

 

[drrayeye]

It's an option that a knifemaker could provide--and a user might appreciate. It's assumed on a Wusthof Chef Knife--and a surprise on a Chinese vegetable cleaver.

 

[panda]

DT? Absolutely. I want a thicker robust blade at the heel, getting progressively thinner at midpoint and with a slicey tip for dicing onions and finer more precise cuts. There have been quite a few chonk geometries recently with zero DT and all that does is add unnecessary weight and forward balance. It looks bad too. Some makers go to the other extreme and thats not appealing either.

Nakiri's get a pass.

wat/toyama are incredible cutters with very little taper. I don't like sharpening their steel is only reason I got rid of my wat.

 

[refcast]

I've handle a lot of styles of wide bevel, double and single bevel knives out of Japan, lol

There's a point @ethompson and @Kippington had written about, which is the wide bevel angle, and shinogi height. The other variables are the spine thickness and the blade face angle, which can change from heel to tip.

The most basic wide bevel knife design has a constant wide bevel angle, constant spine thickness, constant shinogi height, constant blade face angle. Should feel kinda stout but dead inside, not too nimble.

The majority of nakiri are thinner in grind towards the tip -- they have a lower wide bevel angle. I'd argue this matters the most for performance through food. Then we select a shinogi height for food release reasons, and balance that against blade face geometry for stiffness (thicker) or food release (hollowed slightly).

Many many clad knife blade faces are not flat, especially for Sakai knives, I'd argue the slight ground hollow in them (I've seen it in almost all of them), allows for better food release. And the forged knives with kurouchi -- they often have a deeper hollow for even better food release, and sometimes with uneven hammer that also help.

I could have a knife with no spine distal taper, but lower wide bevel angle toward the tip. The shinogi would get higher toward the tip, but the performance through produce would be good. I could still have no spine distal, but I can hollow the blade face more toward the tip to reduce shinogi height. The hollow would be most acute closer to the shinogi, almost like a J, so I keep thickness where it doesn't affect performance as much.

So yeah, I'd argue spine distal taper isn't too important. I can have a knife with distal taper -- but still thick cutting geometry. Prioritize the cutting geometry, food release (via shinogi height and distinct shinogi).

For example, I did thin a Watanabe KU gyuto. I wanted a thinner tip so I just ground the geometry that way, and it did feel more nimble and worked well

For blade super thick at the handle, idk, I don't really like it. Choil and pinch grip thickness though, yes, that CAN help. But good rounding mitigates a lot of discomfort for medium thickness blades. Deba have the thickest choils, and can be uncomfortable if not rounded.

 

[Yoshi]

I suppose it could, but that's not what I had in mind so much as the taper prior to the primary bevel.

Fair enough.

Thanks for all the replies.

The reason I'm asking is that I've wanted to make low bevel knives for a while, but my only real forging equipment is a press, and that just doesn't work for forging stuff<2mm thick or tapers of 1mm-1.5mm over a blade length, but looking at some of the low bevel Japanese knives, and Raquin's knives, it strikes me that there isn't always a noticeable amount of taper and that if ~2mm is an acceptable spine thickness, I can possibly pull it off. Having said that, on first consideration it set off alarm bells in my mind because, well, I just finished my 301st knife on Thursday, and of those 301 maybe 10 have been what I would consider to be heavier/WH type knives. So this is new territory to me, the grinding "philosophy" let's say, is very different than what I've essentially built myself on.

Just out of curiosity, why the change in direction towards low bevel?

Reason I'm asking is that I've noticed Yanick getting going lower bevel, but the cutting feel is probably a bit worse than his previous grind

 

[ethompson]

Just out of curiosity, why the change in direction towards low bevel?

Reason I'm asking is that I've noticed Yanick getting going lower bevel, but the cutting feel is probably a bit worse than his previous grind

You didn’t ask me, but here’s my take. The lower the bevel, the greater the angle separation between hira and kireha. So if you have a workhorse-ier knife and a low bevel it’s relatively easy to make a crisp clean grind. A high bevel on thin forging or low bevel on very thin forging requires oodles of tedious high stakes grinding work.

 

[ethompson]

I suppose it could, but that's not what I had in mind so much as the taper prior to the primary bevel.

Fair enough.

Thanks for all the replies.

The reason I'm asking is that I've wanted to make low bevel knives for a while, but my only real forging equipment is a press, and that just doesn't work for forging stuff<2mm thick or tapers of 1mm-1.5mm over a blade length, but looking at some of the low bevel Japanese knives, and Raquin's knives, it strikes me that there isn't always a noticeable amount of taper and that if ~2mm is an acceptable spine thickness, I can possibly pull it off. Having said that, on first consideration it set off alarm bells in my mind because, well, I just finished my 301st knife on Thursday, and of those 301 maybe 10 have been what I would consider to be heavier/WH type knives. So this is new territory to me, the grinding "philosophy" let's say, is very different than what I've essentially built myself on.

You don’t need heavy spine thickness or crazy taper to do a low bevel. That said, the thicker the forging the easier getting a crisp grind will be. For a 10mm high bevel I think you really need to be less than 1mm at the shinogi to get great performance. That requires a pretty strong level of forging and grinding consistency to do well.

Personally, on a 240x55, I think a small amount of taper going from 3.5mm out of the handle to 1mm at the tip with a 15mm bevel is pretty ideal. Shinogi at the heel 1.5mm and 1mm at the tip. Easier said than done…

 

[iimi]

I suppose it could, but that's not what I had in mind so much as the taper prior to the primary bevel.

Fair enough.

Thanks for all the replies.

The reason I'm asking is that I've wanted to make low bevel knives for a while, but my only real forging equipment is a press, and that just doesn't work for forging stuff<2mm thick or tapers of 1mm-1.5mm over a blade length, but looking at some of the low bevel Japanese knives, and Raquin's knives, it strikes me that there isn't always a noticeable amount of taper and that if ~2mm is an acceptable spine thickness, I can possibly pull it off. Having said that, on first consideration it set off alarm bells in my mind because, well, I just finished my 301st knife on Thursday, and of those 301 maybe 10 have been what I would consider to be heavier/WH type knives. So this is new territory to me, the grinding "philosophy" let's say, is very different than what I've essentially built myself on.

Assuming I have one of those WH style knives from you, it was very well executed and I think you should make a lot more.

 

[Justinv]

@MSicardCutlery I think your answer is vegtable cleavers. Low bevel, little taper.