Does my gyuto need thinning?

[oval99]

Well, I’ve just started sharpening my Takamura Migaki on some Shaptons and am happy with my rookie results so far. I’d say it’s been sharpened six times between me and pro sharpeners. However, it occurred to me that when I looked at the choil that perhaps the shoulders looked a little thick and I may need to thin. I still like the cutting performance and it doesn’t wedge too badly (although it is getting harder to split an onion without much effort).

In others' more expert opinion judging by my pic, should it be thinned? If so, I’ll thin it for my next sharpening session. For comparison, I’ve also included pics of my Takamura Hana gyuto (only been professionally sharpened twice by Dave) and my CCK cleaver, which is super thin. EDIT: Does the right side of the bevel on the Migaki look slightly flatter than the left? Is this a result of my rookie sharpening? If so, why?

Thanks!

 

[M1k3]

 

[McMan]

If you're asking, the answer is "yes"

 

[chinacats]

McMan said it best...if you're asking then it likely needs thinning

 

[oval99]

OK, sometimes it really is that simple! Thanks all.

 

[lemeneid]

The Takamura is already super thin though. Why are you thinning a laser knife?

 

[refcast]

When you start thinning, try doing it from the edge up and make the transitions as smooth as possible for smoothest cut.

Or make a wide bevel with shoulders for more food release, though I don't advise that.

Or start from bottom third or half of the blade and go down. Again, I don't recommend this because most of the effect first lies closes to the edge. Not that you can't do these things, because I have. It's just I like the first option more, and it keeps the overall knife feel more.

 

[labor of love]

Need some better choil shot pics than those to know for sure. Takamura is superthin ootb. Do you have any experience thinning?

 

[oval99]

Hi Labor of love. I've actually had the Takamura for about 4 years now and it's been sharpened by myself and others about 5 times. I just started sharpening with stones not too long ago and just sharpened the Takamura this weekend on a 1500 Shapton Pro and then finished on a 5K Shapton Pro. I've heard that thinning is just part of a regular sharpening session as any knife, no matter how thin, will start to thicken at the shoulders after it's been sharpened enough. And no, I don't have any experience thinning.

I just noticed that the knife isn't flying through stuff like onions like it once was. There is definitely some resistance when making slices in the onion. By no means is the knife dull (it push-cuts phone book paper), but I'd just like the kind of high-octane performance you see in youtube vids where it looks like they're cutting through air

But perhaps this is an issue of the edge not being refined enough. Maybe for that kind of performance I'll need to go to an even finer stone (around 8K) and then strop with some micron spray. Or make a more acute angle?

Thanks and I'll try to get a better choil shot.

 

[lemeneid]

If you’ve only sharpened the knife 5 times total, that’s not enough practice to know what sharp is. Before thinning, I suggest practicing sharpening it more. Finer stones won’t do you much good if your technique isn’t right. FWIW, Takamura knives are 3000 grit OOTB, so you clearly need to practice sharpening more.

 

[oval99]

Thanks lemeneid. Certainly my technique needs improvement. I'm just a little confused by what you mean that I need more practice to "know what sharp is." I must be doing something right if it cuts much better than before, can flow through phone book paper like water, and once nearly stuck into my cutting board. Although I can't feel a burr on either the 1500 stone or the 5K stone I've read on at least one thread that not feeling a burr on finer stones isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does make me wonder when I should stop on the finer grit stones if I can't feel a burr? Perhaps I wasn't spending enough time on the finer grit stones and eventually I'd raise a burr and then it would be able to glide through something like an onion with almost no resistance.

Later today I'll upload a better choil shot.

 

[Carl Kotte]

If you’ve only sharpened the knife 5 times total, that’s not enough practice to know what sharp is. Before thinning, I suggest practicing sharpening it more. Finer stones won’t do you much good if your technique isn’t right. FWIW, Takamura knives are 3000 grit OOTB, so you clearly need to practice sharpening more.

But wait, look at the first post! It is clearly stated that the knife has been sharpened by a pro too previously. So why would not OP know what sharp is? What do you base that assertion on? (Btw, the number of times one has sharpened a knife oneself is not obviously relevant to one’s capacity to assess sharpness. It is in principle possible to know what sharp is, without knowing how to sharpen).

 

[Carl Kotte]

I have sharpened a friend’s Takamura a few times. I am the first and only person to have sharpened it yet. It is still super thin and slices very well so I have not even considered thinning it yet. But, at some point it will certainly need thinning. Just not there yet.

 

[M1k3]

I have a Takamura. When I sharpen it, I do some thinning. A few passes at 1k, a few at 6k on each side. Then sharpen as normal. I definitely notice if I skip the thininning. I basically follow the videos I posted but don't do it as extreme.

 

[oval99]

I have a Takamura. When I sharpen it, I do some thinning. A few passes at 1k, a few at 6k on each side. Then sharpen as normal. I definitely notice if I skip the thininning. I basically follow the videos I posted but don't do it as extreme.

This is helpful, thanks. Perhaps I'll make a few swipes on my 1500 and then on my 5K and then sharpen. Do you find it necessary to thin at a coarse grit (I have a 220) for this thin a knife?

 

[M1k3]

This is helpful, thanks. Perhaps I'll make a few swipes on my 1500 and then on my 5K and then sharpen. Do you find it necessary to thin at a coarse grit (I have a 220) for this thin a knife?

I don't find coarse grit necessary. I'm only trying to remove as much metal thinning as is removed from the edge sharpening. "Maintenance thinning" I guess it could be called? Just keeping the "shoulders" away.

P.S. Your knife will probably not look as flashy after this. I just deal with it. But I also work in a restaurant full time so for me, Performance > Aesthetics.

 

[chinacats]

Tendency is for new sharpeners to dull the knife w a finishing stone. I would also suggest that your knife should "glide through on onion like butter" just as equally after a clean 1k finish.

Cutting paper doesn't tell you much.

If you're reaching the apex with your final stone then you're creating a burr even if you can't feel it.

 

[krx927]

In my experience the knife definitely needs thinning after 5 sharpenings (even sooner), even if we are talking about ultimate laser like Takamura. Even you are saying that you can see the shoulders.

About your other question why the right side on the pics looks flatter (this is actually left side when you hold the knife), this is normal grind for Japanese knives. The right side is always more convex to help with food release on the right handed knives. Nothing to do with your sharpening.

 

[Nemo]

But wait, look at the first post! It is clearly stated that the knife has been sharpened by a pro too previously. So why would not OP know what sharp is? What do you base that assertion on? (Btw, the number of times one has sharpened a knife oneself is not obviously relevant to one’s capacity to assess sharpness. It is in principle possible to know what sharp is, without knowing how to sharpen).

It depends on who the "pro" was and how they sharpened the knife.

Whilst it is true that on a theoretical level, the ability to assess sharpness is distinct from the ability to make a knife sharp, the two skills both tend to be improved by practice sharpening and thinking and learning about sharpening.

 

[Nemo]

I have a Takamura. When I sharpen it, I do some thinning. A few passes at 1k, a few at 6k on each side. Then sharpen as normal. I definitely notice if I skip the thininning. I basically follow the videos I posted but don't do it as extreme.

I also tend to do a little thinning on a medium stone every time I sharpen on a medium stone. Reduces the need for a massive thinning job later on. I don't usually bother if it's just a touch up on a fine stone.

 

[M1k3]

I also tend to do a little thinning on a medium stone every time I sharpen on a medium stone. Reduces the need for a massive thinning job later on. I don't usually bother if it's just a touch up on a fine stone.

Definitely if it's a touch-up/stropping, no need to thin. Otherwise I hit the sides.

 

[lemeneid]

Thanks lemeneid. Certainly my technique needs improvement. I'm just a little confused by what you mean that I need more practice to "know what sharp is." I must be doing something right if it cuts much better than before, can flow through phone book paper like water, and once nearly stuck into my cutting board. Although I can't feel a burr on either the 1500 stone or the 5K stone I've read on at least one thread that not feeling a burr on finer stones isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does make me wonder when I should stop on the finer grit stones if I can't feel a burr? Perhaps I wasn't spending enough time on the finer grit stones and eventually I'd raise a burr and then it would be able to glide through something like an onion with almost no resistance.

Later today I'll upload a better choil shot.

I get a nice big juicy burr even on my super fine Narutaki stone. If your edge is thin enough, you will get a burr no matter what.

Also don’t look at paper cutting as a good test, cut some tomatoes and onions instead, that should tell you how good the knife cuts.

 

[M1k3]

I get a nice big juicy burr even on my super fine Narutaki stone. If your edge is thin enough, you will get a burr no matter what.

Also don’t look at paper cutting as a good test, cut some tomatoes and onions instead, that should tell you how good the knife cuts.

Lemons and eggplant also.

 

[Jville]

It sounds like you need to thin the knife. You can really feel a knifes grind on onions. That knife shouldnt struggle with onions.

 

[oval99]

Wow, a lot of great advice here. After looking at all the comments, I think my best course of action is to moderately thin the knife using a 1500 stone and then sharpen it again on the 1500 and finish on the 5K, hopefully raising a tactile burr. If I can't feel the burr, I have a 30x loupe that may help.

I've posted a better choil shot here and would love to know if people think the knife needs to be thinned...

 

[labor of love]

I have a Takamura. When I sharpen it, I do some thinning. A few passes at 1k, a few at 6k on each side. Then sharpen as normal. I definitely notice if I skip the thininning. I basically follow the videos I posted but don't do it as extreme.

I’ll take this advice as well.
Thanks

 

[labor of love]

Wow, a lot of great advice here. After looking at all the comments, I think my best course of action is to moderately thin the knife using a 1500 stone and then sharpen it again on the 1500 and finish on the 5K, hopefully raising a tactile burr. If I can't feel the burr, I have a 30x loupe that may help.

I've posted a better choil shot here and would love to know if people think the knife needs to be thinned...

View attachment 53537

Definitely needs thinning.

 

[Carl Kotte]

It depends on who the "pro" was and how they sharpened the knife.

True - and obvious, right?! But, if OP tested the Takamura ootb he had some relevant idea of sharpness to assess the quality of a pro’s work (from my experience they are delivered sharp enough, and quite consistently though discrepancies occurr). So my point still stands - noise notwithstanding.

 

[oval99]

True - and obvious, right?! But, if OP tested the Takamura ootb he had some relevant idea of sharpness to assess the quality of a pro’s work (from my experience they are delivered sharp enough, and quite consistently though discrepancies occurr). So my point still stands - noise notwithstanding.

Yep, agreed. I definitely remember when I got it out of the box. It kept sticking to the board. That’s when I realized what sharp truly was. And it just shot through onions/tomatoes/whatever like they weren’t there. Also remember when I got it back from Dave — same Ferrari performance.

Putting everything together (both from this thread and my new sharpening experience) I really do think it needs thinning. The knife certainly isn’t “dull” (barely have to use more than the weight of the knife for celery, scallions, and even tomatoes slice pretty well) but stuff like carrots and onions feel like I need to push through more than I used to.

So off to thinning I go!

 

[Carl Kotte]

Yep, agreed. I definitely remember when I got it out of the box. It kept sticking to the board. That’s when I realized what sharp truly was. And it just shot through onions/tomatoes/whatever like they weren’t there. Also remember when I got it back from Dave — same Ferrari performance.

Putting everything together (both from this thread and my new sharpening experience) I really do think it needs thinning. The knife certainly isn’t “dull” (barely have to use more than the weight of the knife for celery, scallions, and even tomatoes slice pretty well) but stuff like carrots and onions feel like I need to push through more than I used to.

So off to thinning I go!

Very wise!