Edge Retention- best carbon makers

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by Gregmega, Mar 26, 2019.

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  1. Nov 6, 2019 #181

    Gregmega

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    Does anyone know the answer to this query? Lest we suffer through more endless speculation, can anyone definitively answer- Does honyaki have better retention in real world situ, why is the hrc higher than a mono? Where’s HRC68 when you need him- so many questions.
     
  2. Nov 6, 2019 #182

    Barmoley

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    I think that Japanese makers usually harden honyaki harder at the edge. Except Toyama since core on his San Mai seems to be as hard as honyaki. Western makers make San Mai and mono blades as hard or harder than honyaki often. So it is a choice not necessarily a construction limitation. The main point is that differential heat treatment is pretty useless as far as performance is concerned in kitchen knives. Another point is that if edge retention is your goal, white class steels are not what you would pick no matter the heat treat. Heat treat will not make one steel into another. If edge retention is your goal picking a different steel is what you need to do. This assumes optimal heat treat for any of the chosen steels. That has to be a given otherwise the discussion about steel differences is pointless.
     
  3. Nov 6, 2019 #183

    Eloh

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    .. What barmoley said


    @Greg there really is no speculation. It just happens that most Japanese makers usually treat their san Mai blades softer than they could, for various reasons
     
  4. Nov 6, 2019 #184
    Bam!!
     
  5. Nov 6, 2019 #185

    thebradleycrew

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    Tell you what @tgfencer - you sell me your reactive iron clad workhorse - sounds right up my alley!!!
     
  6. Nov 6, 2019 #186

    suntravel

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    This is not the case on my knives and there is no practical reason to temper Honyakis to higher HRC. Maybe with some makers marketing stuff to make mono with higher tempering softer so the high Honyaki pricetag seems to have some more reason ;)

    Regards

    Uwe
     
  7. Nov 6, 2019 #187

    suntravel

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    One drawback with San Mai is the carbon diffusion unless you use a thin nickel layer between the core an soft outer layer, but this is seldom used in Japan, more from good western blacksmiths ;)

    So with straight San Mai you will loose some carbon in the core, the more the longer the blade was on high temp, wich looses some hardebillity on the steel...

    Regards

    Uwe
     
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  8. Nov 6, 2019 #188

    Gregmega

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    Boom.
     
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  9. Nov 6, 2019 #189

    RDalman

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    Honyaki offers (some) straightenability, the soft spine and hamon have practical purpose in that sense. I see alot more carbon diffusion on western makers work in general, if we're going to be generalising... Nickel does hardly seem to retard this diffusion I actually think. You often see it happened through it. The japanese (if we're generalising) have a much better forging metallurgy traditionally keeping their forging fast and efficient, and low temps after the forgeweld.
     
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  10. Nov 6, 2019 #190

    labor of love

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    Yes of course. Which was my point. If we set aside hypotheticals for second...Comparing Honyaki made in Japan to mono made in Japan there is much difference.
    The rest of world does whatever.
     
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  11. Nov 6, 2019 #191

    suntravel

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    so they should be cheaper ?

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e943/674d4037a198f761694233e101f167f24f8b.pdf

    I have never seen in japanese forging videos they forge a blade in one heat, but have seen this from a german maker and a swiss one ist also fast in forging with a very high degree of transformation per heat and adjusting his forging with metallurgy testing ;)

    Regards

    Uwe
     
  12. Nov 6, 2019 #192

    labor of love

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    Btw just to answer the question from my own personal experience, I’ve used both shiraki honyaki and shiraki blue 2 San mai. Honyaki does have better retention and takes a little longer to sharpen.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  13. Nov 6, 2019 #193

    Keith Sinclair

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    Yes the two working Honyaki used at work the hamon was not seen. Saw one polished up in vid. it was high around kanji area.

    Can't explain why but honyaki's feel more dense than mono steel carbons. Most are harder than white & blue carbons so have better edge retention.

    Have also read that Honyaki are harder to sharpen. My experience they are easy to get extremely sharp.
     
  14. Nov 6, 2019 #194

    captaincaed

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    This makes a lot of sense to me.

    Deleted dumb redundant stuff
     
  15. Nov 6, 2019 #195

    captaincaed

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    I was lucky enough to get my first knife from a local American maker whose work I've admired for the past three years. He described his heat treat of 52100 as a "spring temper". I'd love to know a little bit more about that term and how it relates to the differential heat treat topic.
     
  16. Nov 7, 2019 #196

    lemeneid

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    Yeah, I was under the impression the processes for making honyaki, san mai and mono were different, even if you treat them to the same HRC wouldn't the end result be slightly different?
    I'd imagine its like cooking a steak to medium rare for example. You can pan sear, reverse sear, sous vide, barbecue, etc.. but the results for each would be different although the doneness is the same.
     
  17. Nov 7, 2019 #197

    Eloh

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    ... Only if they are forged at full moon ;)
     
  18. Nov 7, 2019 #198

    Garm

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    I have next to no knowledge on the subject, and have never used a Honyaki blade, but from what I've seen online there seem to be some differences between honyaki blades in a western design(i.e. gyuto) that are designed to take more of beating and traditional Japanese blades like Yanagibas.
    I remember a video that has been circulated here where they analysed a Tatsuo Ikeda honyaki yanagiba, that showed a hardness of about 68 HRC after tempering. I've never heard or seen a honyaki gyuto reaching those numbers, but I may of course be very mistaken. I'm guessing the differences in characteristics like edge retention and sharpeneability are quite a bit more dramatic in a honyaki yanagiba like this using simple carbon steels compared to more standard hardnesses for that blade design, than when you compare a honyaki gyuto to a "standard" gyuto.
     
  19. Nov 8, 2019 #199
    It usually means that it’s a little softer, the maker may mean something a little different though.

    Hoss
     
  20. Nov 8, 2019 #200

    Corradobrit1

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    I have both honyaki (W2 not Shirogami 2) and sanmai knives and don't think the honyaki are any harder to sharpen. Honyaki does 'feel' harder or denser, but the same can be said for my Kato's. Having seen Kiyoshi Kato vids on YT I think much of that honyaki feel is down to the extra carbon imparted into the blade during the final steps in his smithing process. I've not seen any other makers doing this with kitchen knives and I believe it does make a difference especially in the thinner exposed core steel.
     
  21. Nov 8, 2019 #201

    captaincaed

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    Thanks Hoss. To clarify, is that a softer spine, or softer overall? I realize my question wasn't well-phrased.
     
  22. Nov 8, 2019 #202
    It’s best to ask the maker, could be just the spine.
    Hoss
     
  23. Nov 8, 2019 #203

    captaincaed

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    True enough. I'm trying to avoid bugging him, he seems quite busy.
     
  24. Nov 8, 2019 #204

    labor of love

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    What’s his name? God put me on this earth to harass all vendors and custom makers. I can do it for you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  25. Nov 8, 2019 #205

    M1k3

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    That's why you're left handed :p
     
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  26. Nov 8, 2019 #206

    captaincaed

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    And color blind
     
  27. Nov 8, 2019 #207

    captaincaed

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    Seriously thank you, but I’m going to let it be for the moment.
     
  28. Nov 8, 2019 #208

    M1k3

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    Does he have an extra toe? Finger? Nipple?
     
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  29. Nov 8, 2019 #209

    captaincaed

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    Ask his girlfriend
     
  30. Nov 8, 2019 #210

    labor of love

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    @CiderBear
     
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