Luftmensch
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2017
- Messages
- 2,316
- Reaction score
- 3,186
Thanks for elaborating
I agree and disagree with bits and pieces
Back to knives
Diplomatic of you
This forum has a lot of level-headed, well mannered folk!
electric cars.
- Thread starter inferno
- Start date
Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:
Diplomatic of you
This forum has a lot of level-headed, well mannered folk!
And Panda! and ChefDoom!Diplomatic of you
This forum has a lot of level-headed, well mannered folk!
Two of my favorite posters, even if some people may not consider them well-mannered (I personally applaud their no-BS manner of posting, and enjoy when they join discussions)
Luftmensch
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2017
- Messages
- 2,316
- Reaction score
- 3,186
And Panda! and ChefDoom!
Two of my favorite posters, even if some people may not consider them well-mannered (I personally applaud their no-BS manner of posting, and enjoy when they join discussions)
Yes; this forum has a lot of level-headed, well mannered folk! And then there is @panda and @Chef Doom
I think it goes to show "play the ball and not the man". People will tolerate controversial opinions and even a little cheeky provocation so long as it is in good humour. Start being nasty to people and not critical of ideas - then the wheels fall off pretty quickly.
KKF is actually remarkably level-headed and mostly avoids nastiness... @panda and @Chef Doom included
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
I took delivery of my Model 3 Performance in late May. Couldn't be happier. This is an all-round excellent car. No ifs or buts. It just works, and the performance is spectacular.
The one thing I'm not keen on is the auto-pilot. It makes me feel like I'm sitting beside a learner driver.
Adaptive cruise control works well, at least on motorways. Using it on city roads (even large and wide ones) gives me the pips. It is way too conservative and has a habit of stomping on the breaks for no good reason.
The one thing I'm not keen on is the auto-pilot. It makes me feel like I'm sitting beside a learner driver.
Adaptive cruise control works well, at least on motorways. Using it on city roads (even large and wide ones) gives me the pips. It is way too conservative and has a habit of stomping on the breaks for no good reason.
I'm still driving petrol Hondas and expect to continue to do so at least until 2025. I never liked the complexity of hybrids and the Prius, while having an excellent record for reliability, is decidedly not fun to drive. For true EVs I don't think either the battery technology or the charging network are quite there in much of the USA. Should I want to visit an old friend and former traveling companion in Chadron, Nebraska that is a drive of about 1,000 km one way with few realistic travel options other than driving and currently very few charging stations along the route. While that isn't a drive I make often trips of 325 km one way are fairly routine. Add in the significant loss of range in cold weather and many existent EV models just don't have adequate range. The low population density in much or the US complicates the charging network issue. Should I wish to go camping in the Wind River Range it involves a drive across Wyoming which has a population density of six people per square mile.
I do hope the Aptera actually makes it to market this time. We need more antidotes to the infatuation with large SUVs and pickups although selling something like the Aptera to typical US customers would definitely be an uphill push. It will be interesting to see which of the non-PRC startup EV manufactures can actually bring viable products to market. Both Rivian and Lucid have some ex-Tesla talent and seem like they may be able to raise the requisite capital. Hopefully, they can learn from Tesla's slightly inept production issues.
I do hope the Aptera actually makes it to market this time. We need more antidotes to the infatuation with large SUVs and pickups although selling something like the Aptera to typical US customers would definitely be an uphill push. It will be interesting to see which of the non-PRC startup EV manufactures can actually bring viable products to market. Both Rivian and Lucid have some ex-Tesla talent and seem like they may be able to raise the requisite capital. Hopefully, they can learn from Tesla's slightly inept production issues.
Last edited:
A bit late to this thread. I've been a Tesla M3 performance owner since late 2018 -- a relative old-hand in the EV world. Notwithstanding its quirks, I love it and believe in the EV evolution. Although charging for long roadtrips require a bit more work, everyday driving/charging is much convenient IMO. Get home, plug it in, done.
The R1T truck from Rivian has been on my radar for some time. Likely my next EV.
The R1T truck from Rivian has been on my radar for some time. Likely my next EV.
Luftmensch
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2017
- Messages
- 2,316
- Reaction score
- 3,186
Nice one @Michi! I am genuinely happy for you!
Sounds fun!I was thinking about EVs recently. When the Model S Plaid** was announced, I started to wonder whether companies would enter into a gentlemen's agreement a la the motorcycle speed wars? Or... will regulators put up regulation to stymie availability of these vehicles?
Super/hypercar performance is one thing when those vehicles cost the same amount as a house in a capital city. Reducing the cost to more 'affordable' levels? Eh... I dont know if it is so wise allowing the general public to access that sort of performance.
The Rivian does look cool! Nice idea. Off road vehicles are also a category that benefit from freely available torque.
I still think there is a good chance 'conventional' manufacturers can play catch up. While it is true, electric power trains are quite different to internal combustion, big car manufacturers know how to make cars at scale. As nice as all these options are, they all fall into the luxury bracket. The design and manufacturing competency required to sell luxury cars at $>100K is completely different to a no-frills $20K cars. It will be truely transformative once we have the i30 or Corolla of electric cars. (I very much recognise technology needs the early adoption phase).
**Steering 'yoke'? You have to be kidding me...
Last edited:
Electric cars are the wave of the future. Ford, Chevrolet and most of the Asian manufacturers are making huge investments in EV technology and manufacturing. By 2030 most of the cars being sold will be electric. Given the rising cost of gas and the current restrictions on drilling, the all-EV world could come sooner than that.Does anyone have an electric car?
Do you like it?
whats good and whats bad?
on my job all the paper pushers are getting teslas, apparantly. basically the company leases the car for them and they get a raise, to pay for the cars lease-cost
i used to live in norway, and they have lots of teslas there.
it was not because of "the environment" (its an oil producing country...)
on my street there was 3 teslas.
In norway the gov wanted to push electric cars so there was some benefits with electric cars:
*park for free whereever you wanted pretty much.
*no tolls going into the citys (about 2-3€$ each time)
*no VAT
*No horsepower added cost, and in norway you pay like 100 €/$ per HP over 130-150hp or so on a new car.
usually any 4-500Hp car cost about 150-250k €/$ with all the environmental crap payed.
*you can drive in the bus lane (saving 2h a day in oslo)
But i think most of these benefits no one really cared about. its was the driving in the bus lane that was the big seller, save time.
do these benefits exist in other countries too?
i have a few bicycles. i ride them every day to and from work. about 25km in total. its very environmentally friendly. my company doesn't even want to pay for my studded winter tires.
or give me any extra money for me staying healthy. but they can gladly pay for your gym membership that you use once a month... because it makes you healthy...
Does anyone understand why the Japanese manufacturers are so enamored with hydrogen? I sort of get it for their domestic market given their geography and population distribution but on a global level it seems like a considerable stretch.
I got a used 2019 Leaf a couple months ago. Range isn't really an issue since almost all of my driving is 10 miles at a time, and we also have a gas-powered car if we really need it for long trips. But man, the Leaf is fantastic, even though it's like the least expensive electric car possible. Quiet, fun to drive (great torque), so easy to charge at my house.
Not really, to be honest. Hydrogen is highly untrivial to store safely and its production has efficiency of only around 30%, so it is as of today neither economical, nor ecological. Of course it makes zero sense to run a hydrogen combustion engine and hydrogen-cell based cars still need a battery (though not quite as large as ne EV car does). So in my (technically fairly naive) opinion - unless a more efficient hydrogen production will be developed, (or a production process that does not require electric energy as input), then I don't see the point in investing in industrialization of it as fuel for cars. But there is always a chance that I am missing some obvious and important point.
Luftmensch
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2017
- Messages
- 2,316
- Reaction score
- 3,186
The government backed it? Not really sure why... Time will tell whether this is wise or not... It does seem like the technology has been crawling along slowly.
One massive advantage hydrogen has is its energy density. It can store more energy per unit volume (and weight). Hydrogen might have an energy density of ~7MJ/kg (depending on the weight of the tank). Lithium ion batteries are in the range 0.36 - 0.875MJ/kg. I suspect it is the lower end for vehicle scale batteries (once you add up all the ruggedisation and smarts/integration). As a crude approximation, it is probably not unfair to say hydrogen systems could achieve 10x the energy density of current batteries. That means larger ranges and lighter vehicles.
It may not matter for zippy urban cars... hydrogen has likely lost the race here (or at least for now). Hydrogen could still be very useful for heavy transport and shipping. If one stretches the imagination, possibly aeronautics. Our best battery technologies are still very heavy and nowhere near useful for practical flight!
There is the other practical aspect of familiar habits. Filling a hydrogen tank would be very similar to filling a gasoline/diesel/LPG tank.... 3 minutes and you're in and out with a pack of gum and a really bad sandwich and regrets...
Australia is investing in green hydrogen. We have supplied dirty hydrogen to Japan in the past for some hydrogen vehicle projects. We are looking to go green. Academics and research institutions think Australia could position itself as a green hydrogen superpower. Our national research agency CSIRO, developed an method for extracting hydrogen from ammonia - which could help pave the way for safe storage and transportation. All this said, Australia's interest is more on the industrial side. Of course; hydrogen could play a role in transport... but it can also play a role in heavy industry like running turbines (power), smelting metals and fertilisers.
Australia has tremendous form in stuffing up opportunity! I am hoping the EU and US continue to put pressure on us to commit to green targets. With our recent appalling French submarine diplomacy, I don't think europe is going to be generous with our 20th century approach to carbon emissions - and bloody right!
Last edited:
I have been following this for a number of years. Japan bet heavily on nuclear power because they don't have much in the way of domestic energy production. Fukushima messed that up big time. Since then Japan has been trying to find a way to salvage the nuclear energy project with something safer than conventional meltdown prone reactors. They believe they can use helium for a fuel source and produce clean (i.e. non fossil fuel derived) hydrogen as a byproduct. And for the Japanese, the same factors that limit their domestic energy production (small archipelago) make building something like a hydrogen distribution network trivial. So the government is heavily subsidizing it as a plank in their clean energy platform. The new generation reactors are still experimental but look promising. This would allow them to use nuclear generated electricity for their grid and have clean hydrogen for transportation and fuel.
One new wrinkle in the energy/climate debate in regards to hydrogen is new research on arctic ice that shows atmospheric hydrogen concentrations have skyrocketed over the last 100 years in tandem with carbon dioxide, methane, sulfur dioxide, and other fossil fuel related pollutants. We aren't really sure where it's all coming from our what it will mean for climate change. A lot of it is probably being released in the mining and burning of natural gas. And leaking out of natural gas pipelines. Hydrogen is not directly implicated as a greenhouse gas, but it's affects haven't been studied that much because scientists believed until very recently that free hydrogen wouldn't just stick around in the atmosphere very long. It turns out they were wrong. It does stick around and it possibly could influence a number of processes related to climate change. For instance, by intensifying the effect of methane as a greenhouse gas. Anyways, this complicates the picture for the rest of the world's ambitions for a hydrogen economy, I suspect Japan will keep dumping tons of money on it for the next several decades.
Knivperson
Senior Member
Knivperson
Senior Member
Only one car is faster than a Tesla Plaid right now - including all combustions cars - and it's the Rimac Nevera.
I do have to say, as an outsider to the industry and someone with limited knowledge about these things, it is a little sad to witness how this shift has occurred.
"Who Killed the Electric Car?" was released in 2006, detailing the development, commercialization, and death of electric vehicles in the mid-90s. I mention this only as a testament to the fact that the technology for this has existed for quite some time - only it wasn't in the (financial) interests of these corporations to continue to develop and promote.
I think EV and hybrid vehicles are the way of the future, and so I am appreciative of all progress on that front. But I can't help but feel that this is only being done because Elon Musk & Co. have done such a good job of framing (their) electric vehicles as "status symbols." It seems as if big corporations can/will only be motivated to combat climate warming and other environmental issues if they can see a large profit in it. This isn't shocking by any means, but it is certainly depressing as hell and it paints a bleak picture of us actually accomplishing anything in the long term.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
I tend to agree. In any "normal" car, you can floor it and pretty much have nothing bad happen. With the amount of power and torque of the Model 3, doing that is definitely dangerous and may well land you off the road somewhere. There is also the question whether that level of performance is necessary. Sure, it's a lot of fun. But then, there are lots of teenagers who died just because they were having fun, and that was in cars that were nowhere near as fast…
There is a safety bonus to the brutal acceleration: overtaking is done and dusted in the blink of eye, no questions asked. But I'm not sure that this outweighs the risks.
Long term, I expect that the acceleration of cars will be limited by law or industry agreement. It's just a matter of waiting long enough for a sufficient number of people to have died, as happened with motorcycles.
user 16756
Senior Member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2015
- Messages
- 2,645
- Reaction score
- 3,940
I wouldnt be caught dead driving a Tesla. POS cars and the owner of the company is the biggest d-bag Ive ever seen in 3 decades of life on this planet.
that said, the Porsche Taycan non-turbo (which is... I mean ok Porsche you do you I guess) is a good looking vehicle and you get some actual build quality with it so that's an interesting one. if Audi made an electric A6 AND I lived somewhere I could easily charge it, I would go for it. I think they have an SUV which is a good start, now just make a car.
Ive been into cars since I was a kid; I knew pretty much every make and model available in the US when I was in elementary school and stretched a bit to get my first M car because I had loved M3s forever. For me, the idea that the thing that makes a car wonderful is exploding dinosaur intestines is a bit silly. I dont see how having the motors be electric will reduce my enjoyment.
Oh and also just because a Model 3 can out accelerate a 911 on a drag strip doesnt mean much. The 911 Turbo is a better engineered car than any Tesla in every way from the gaps of the panels to the big stuff like being not ugly.
that said, the Porsche Taycan non-turbo (which is... I mean ok Porsche you do you I guess) is a good looking vehicle and you get some actual build quality with it so that's an interesting one. if Audi made an electric A6 AND I lived somewhere I could easily charge it, I would go for it. I think they have an SUV which is a good start, now just make a car.
Ive been into cars since I was a kid; I knew pretty much every make and model available in the US when I was in elementary school and stretched a bit to get my first M car because I had loved M3s forever. For me, the idea that the thing that makes a car wonderful is exploding dinosaur intestines is a bit silly. I dont see how having the motors be electric will reduce my enjoyment.
Oh and also just because a Model 3 can out accelerate a 911 on a drag strip doesnt mean much. The 911 Turbo is a better engineered car than any Tesla in every way from the gaps of the panels to the big stuff like being not ugly.
Agreed that hydrogen ICE is impractical. I blame physics and it's little brother (chemistry).
If you produce hydrogen with renewable energy, it makes the production efficiency less of an issue. And it is potentially an easier way of storing large amounts of energy than, say, building large chemical battery systems (which have their own inefficiencies, especially in transmission to where the power is needed). Or potential energy batteries (such as pumped hydro). CSIRO have developed a technology to store hydrogen as ammonia then extract it when required, so it's also potentially transportable in bulk. Say, from the sun-scorched deserts of central Australia to Japan.
The size of the battery in a fuel cell car is much smaller and lighter, with implications for acceleration, range and overall design of the car.
I think that this has hit the nail on the head. Energy density and speed of reuelling are the main benefits of hydrogen over chemical batteries. And I guess that you don't need to periodically recycle the batteries (but probably do need to refresh the fuel cell).
Range anxiety is a major factor here in regional Australia, as is the ability to fully refuel within a couple of minutes. I know people who drive a couple of hundred Km per day just to get to work and perhaps the shops. Even with my more modest 50-100 km per day driving, range anxiety prevents me from even considering battery power at the moment because when I'm busy, it could be 200km per day, without much time to recharge for days on end.
It's also very common to drive 6 or more hours to holiday or visit family. Multi-day road trips are not that uncommon. High current recharging stations would probably help here but the network of them is still pretty primative in regional Australia. Even so, you are adding time to your trip. Hydrogen would definitely help with those problems. Granted, it would also require a roll-out of hydrogen filling stations.
Hydrogen power probably doesn't have much benefit over battery powered passenger cars in densely populated areas with good public transport infrastructure. However in more remote areas there are significant benefits to the energy density and rapid refuelling that hydrogen offers.
One of Australia's largest iron mining companies has committed to developing and rolling out (green) hydrogen technology to its road and rail transport fleet. Also to developing green steel smelting technology with green hydrogen. I'm watching this with interest.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
Not that you'd be opinionated in any way…
Indeed. But why compare apples and oranges? The 911 is a sports car, the Model 3 is a family sedan. Of course the 911 will eat a Model 3 on a race track. That's no different from American muscle cars that go like crazy and steer like a cow. Nothing to see here.
Right now, all the panel gaps are perfectly even on my car, and I have not noticed any other issues with build quality or finish (and I checked thoroughly). As to long-term build quality, I'll know only once I've owned the car for 5+ years.
As to the looks, that's very much a personal thing. I don't think the Tesla is the best-looking sedan out there, but it also is far from being the ugliest, IMO.
Last edited:
user 16756
Senior Member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2015
- Messages
- 2,645
- Reaction score
- 3,940
Not that you'd be opinionated in any way…
Indeed. But why compare apples and oranges? The 911 is a sports car, the Model 3 is a family sedan. Of course the 911 will eat a Model 3 on a race track. That's no different from American muscle cars that go like crazy and steer like a cow. Nothing to see here.
Right now, all the panel gaps are perfectly even on my car, and I have not not noticed any other issues with build quality or finish (and I checked thoroughly). As to long-term build quality, I'll know only once I've owned the car for 5+ years.
As to the looks, that's very much a personal thing. I don't think the Tesla is the best-looking sedan out there, but it also is far from being the ugliest, IMO.
it's not just that a 911 turbo will blast a model 3 on a race track. just day to day, one is a fast car made by the company with the best build quality in the industry and one of the highest real world reliabilities, and the other one is bolted together by undergrad CS majors. if it were Porsche vs BMW/VAG/Volvo then ok it's horses for courses, but Tesla isnt in that strata.
Also my dislike for Elon Musk is probably not great enough considering it's Elon Musk.
If you like the way your car looks ok cant argue with that. That's personal aesthetic. I work in tech in Austin and I see tons of both and I dont think it's remotely close but then I also have never understood the supposed beauty of wedge shaped supercars.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
The Taycan is the better car, no doubt (ignoring range, at least). It also costs pretty much exactly twice as much as a Model 3 Performance. One would expect that Taycan owners get something for all those extra dollars.
As to the Tesla being bolted together by undergrad CS majors, I don't get the hyperbole. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are reasons why Tesla is outselling any other EV manufacturer by a wide margin. Among them are excellence in design and engineering. That excellence doesn't come from CS majors.
user 16756
Senior Member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2015
- Messages
- 2,645
- Reaction score
- 3,940
I'm sure it's a matter of perspective. As it happens, I know a fair bit about how the sausage is made at Tesla on the software engineering side, and I would never drive one based on what I know. That's just my choice.
I cant make the choice for other folk and IME trying to convince anyone that's bought into the Tesla thing is a fool's errand so it is my only hope that you continue to enjoy your vehicle.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
I'm a software engineer, and I've been writing code for a living for over forty years. That includes critical systems, such as Telecoms (every time you make a phone call, there is a good chance that some of my code makes that possible), the mission control system for the space shuttle, and the National Ignition Facility at Lawrence Livermore. I do know something about how the sausage is made at Tesla and, indeed, many other places. I would never dream of allowing my Tesla to drive me around on its self-driving package (which I didn't buy).
No Tesla thing here. I bought the car because I felt guilty driving around in my previous 3.2 l V6, which was basically burning twice as much petrol as a normal car. I've been looking at EVs for close to ten years and, each time I looked, the cost-benefit analysis didn't stack up. Until now, when the range reached plenty enough for my needs, the car's price dropped to a level where I was willing to pay it, and the technology was mature enough for me to no longer be part of the lunatic fringe.
I expect that I'll continue to enjoy the Model 3. Or not. Time will tell.
Last edited:
user 16756
Senior Member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2015
- Messages
- 2,645
- Reaction score
- 3,940
well, I cant argue with your experience. I dont have as much, though I do have a lot these days. I was referring to things I know about Tesla specifically, mostly from talking to former employees, not speculation on the general nature of software engineering. maybe you've seen or heard about some of their struggles on thate side and they don't bother you. I would understand, even if I dont agree.
maybe Im missing something but Im not sure how your SWE experience is informing your choice here, I do trust you can code like a madman just Tesla is Tesla and the places you worked are the places you worked. what's the piece Im missing here?
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
I don't trust my Tesla to drive me around. I do trust my Tesla to accelerate or brake when I step on the appropriate pedal. Almost all cars are drive by wire these days, and those systems are not developed by Tesla, but typically by companies that specialise in such real-time systems. (Bosch is a big one, for example.) I don't know where Tesla gets some of its sub-systems from, but I very much doubt that they develop it all in-house. The brakes are from Brembo, the headlights are from Hella, the navigation is from Google, etc.
So, my Tesla is about as safe or unsafe as pretty much any other recent car when it comes to normal driving. Where Tesla's software comes in is mainly for the self-driving capabilities. And, by and large, I do not use those, except for adaptive cruise control on a highway.
Last edited:
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
would like to update this a bit. i've now shown up at 7.00 3 whole times (and it was a ****ing waste of time this time again, we had some **** meeting that i dont usually go to. yeah monday meeting. **** that ****.). and just to clarify: the time i showed up at 6.30 i did it mostly to **** with the other people on the floor. like a shithawk.
Teslas are the new muscle cars of USA .. replacing Ford Mustang.
The same pros/cons apply .. yes you get speed and fun in a straight line, but a 2x more expensive and slower BMW is still a better _car_.
With euro cars your trim won't fall off and the paint will be perfect every time, better in the corners .. but lacks the childish fun.
Personally, I'm supremely disappointed in Toyota CEO publicly dissing EVs in general .. I was really looking forward to Toyota EVs, alas .. Now Tesla is top of the list for the next car, unless Volvo gets cheaper for some reason.
The same pros/cons apply .. yes you get speed and fun in a straight line, but a 2x more expensive and slower BMW is still a better _car_.
With euro cars your trim won't fall off and the paint will be perfect every time, better in the corners .. but lacks the childish fun.
You can't really call tesla a POS car .. certainly POS quality control, and some very budget solutions sometimes, but it's the most popular EV for good reasons. Maybe those reasons aren't enough for you .. I'd never be caught dead driving a mustang for similar reasons, but I get it when I see the smile on a mustang driver's face.
Ford was d-bag too. For better or worse, most people don't base their car decisions on inventors' character.
CS majors/masters are writing all the software, working stupid overtime. As far as I understand the QC issues are coming from brand new construction lines where Tesla didn't really look at how any other car factories work, so they are a decade or two behind on that one.
The fact that you're comparing a _911_ sports car to a 4 door family semi-budget sedan should tell you _something_
Personally, I'm supremely disappointed in Toyota CEO publicly dissing EVs in general .. I was really looking forward to Toyota EVs, alas .. Now Tesla is top of the list for the next car, unless Volvo gets cheaper for some reason.
Luftmensch
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2017
- Messages
- 2,316
- Reaction score
- 3,186
That is my gut feel. It would not surprise me one bit if established car makers out compete Tesla in the mass market. In that possible reality, Tesla will be relegated to occupying a luxury niche. Maybe Telsa will figure it out and find a way to make a commercially competitive car for the everyday joe... I remain skeptical. It seems to me they have been more cautious about talking about an "affordable" Tesla than they were a few years ago.
Oh really!? That greatly disappoints me. I am a Toyota fan. The outback runs on them
I am sure most europeans cars manufacturers will have an EV option in the near future. Hyundai seem to be fighting for Toyotas crown: fairly priced and reliable no frills cars. I wouldnt be surprised if some good options come out of South Korea.
