Entire state in lock-down because of a lie

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It's probably a combination of a few things. I think you're right that it wasn't a fear of punishment. It's a difficult question to discuss without getting political. Probably worth reading some Australian media to see if you can get a feel for the political environment. Might give a better perspective.

Otherwise I think we had a bit of a headstart and saw the effects overseas and so a lot of people knew how devastating it could be. When Melbourne went into hard lockdown I would guess that it was partly lucky that the virus hadn't infected a huge number of people. The worst days had ~700 infections. I think overall people understood the reasons why lockdown was being implemented even if not fully supported. While it didn't affect the general population as badly, it decimated the aged health care sector here so that surely played on peoples minds.

Of course some people protested and were caught skirting the rules but I would say they were in the minority. Not too sure though. I only read this in the news, don't live in Melbourne.

There was some talk in the media and tension between federal and state governments about whether or not it was the right way to go about things too but not discussing it here.
 
it isn't really politicized in my opinion, as all adults here in the US are well aware of the situation. It is more that they use the politicians as an excuse to not do what they know they should be doing. I see that all around me.
 
I think Australian culture in general is a lot less focused on "Me" and more focused on "Us". The USA is one of the most selfish places I know of in terms of people demanding their own rights are inviolable and consequences to fellow citizens be damned. So when asked to wear a mask we can see the upside and don't ignore mask mandates, and a lockdown is not in violatino of our god given rights to whatever imagined freedoms are being curtailed. Plus, as other have said, we never had the huge numbers the US has seen, which is perhaps one of the benefits of being an island.
 
Australia and the US have deeply different political cultures. The stereotype of Australian politics is that it is "pragmantic" - I'm not sure if that's true - but it might be a useful way to differentiate our politics in relation to American individualism. Some people say Australia is socialist (because it has healthcare) but that is utter nonsense. After just returning to Australia after 3 years in the US - I can say that one feeling (note subjective) I had while there was that any notion of the social - any actual social coordination - was paper thin - it felt like things could fall over at any time. This likely had to do with being in a big city - and perhaps living in a part of that city where government provided social services had been underfunded for many years (I'm not sure). But also, I think, because the US is radically more diverse than Australia - in lots of ways. Australia actually just doesn't have the amount of money flowing around that produces the various extremes that exist in the US. Australians also love rules, and there's nothing in our culture that rewards independence or ambition (called here tall poppy syndrome). Australian's also, more or less, trust politicians. We're very into maintenance of status quo - which is what was promised after a successful lock-down. There were also practical things like getting a cash payment if you had to take a test and miss work while waiting for the results - recognition that the biggest disease vector was the structural organization (i.e. casualization) of the labour market etc...
 
BUT the absolute main reason why the lockdown was tolerated - was because of the wage subsidy and wefare payments. While in lockdown, the vast vast majority of people earned fairly good money NOT working. So the material conditions of life were totally fine - you just shopped online and watched TV all day and probably bought fancy take-away food and new knives.
 
Geigs said:
I think Australian culture in general is a lot less focused on "Me" and more focused on "Us". The USA is one of the most selfish places I know of in terms of people demanding their own rights are inviolable and consequences to fellow citizens be damned.
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Can't argue against this point, although it is a little on the strong side. One thing to keep in mind is many of us here in the US either came from, or our forefathers/ and, er, foremothers, came from countries where they had very little in the way of rights. So personal freedoms mean a lot to a large portion of the population.

And I 1000% admit the preponderance of 'Karens', and the male equivalents, that are around is unfortunate for everyone.
 
gregfisk said:
Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country?
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Prepare for a raft of various responses 🙃

But straight off the top, one of the main reasons it worked is because we have a working social security/unemployment system down here, (and a populace willing to incur debts now that will need to paid off in the future in order to keep a civil society running) rather than one specifically designed to prevent people in need getting money "because it serves them right for being poor." That, right there, is the biggest differentiator - the attitude and thus the implementation. Aussies, in general, lack the entire "**** YOU BUDDY, YOU'RE NOT ME" selfishness.

The federal Govt (which runs the system) stepped up really quickly (yes, I know, some people who have no idea how hard it is to coordinate a whole-of-govt-response to a complete unknown say not quickly enough) to pour a VERY large amount of money into what was effectively unemployment benefits/wage subsidies in order to keep people (i.e. citizens, those here on working visas were left out, I think somewhat unfairly, but again, we are talking a LOT of money here) at least partly employed/able to feed their families/pay rent while they couldn't work. The banks (in conjunction with the govt) also came to the party with mortgage/loan holidays and so on. The idea was to keep people in jobs/housing whenever possible, not turf them out onto the street to learn some sort of lesson (presumably to not be living through a pandemic).

gregfisk said:
Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”
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Early on, when it really counted, they really were, or at least appeared to be, which is good enough. Later, the federal govt drifted around, but by then the states were on top of things, and (generally) had systems that were working, and the feds were thus free to say whatever they wanted for political reasons, knowing full well it would be ignored.

I'm in Victoria, where we had the really bad outbreak (relatively) and had a very tough lockdown for months, (no travel more than 5km from home, work from home if able, 8pm-5am curfew, mandatory mask-wearing outside the home, one hour outside for exercise/day, no visiting other homes, and so on), but we're now five+ weeks without a case or a death. Interstate travel was locked down but is now open again, and we have pretty free movement.

We were planning to move to the bush before this whole thing arced up, and as a result of the travel bans, and the fact that the city where I live was inside the so-called "ring of steel," we couldn't even go and look at potential properties for months. Yay for the internet, it allowed a great deal of research, so when we were released to move around we had a really good grasp on the market.

gregfisk said:
Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do?
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Despite our well-publicised criminal heritage, Aussies are generally pretty law-abiding and community-centred. (i.e. communists...)

gregfisk said:
Was it a patriotic response or common sense?
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No such thing as a patriotic response down here, mate 🙃

gregfisk said:
I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.
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Nope, wasn't that, you're quite correct. "Doing the right thing by everyone," basically. Yes, we had some dickheads marching against things (and for BLM, which caused a decent amount of division in the community, given it was while people weren't meant to be getting together, let alone in large crowds), but overall not too much drama there.

gregfisk said:
What I’m trying to understand is the response that so many of my fellow Americans have taken and why they think that somehow their rights are being stepped on when asked to wear a mask or stay isolated. It became very politicized here and while I don’t want to discuss that per say I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia?
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Much more community-centred rather than self-centred (see first point about proper social net).
 
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WildBoar said:
Can't argue against this point, although it is a little on the strong side. One thing to keep in mind is many of us here in the US either came from, or our forefathers/ and, er, foremothers, came from countries where they had very little in the way of rights. So personal freedoms mean a lot to a large portion of the population.

And I 1000% admit the preponderance of 'Karens', and the male equivalents, that are around is unfortunate for everyone.
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One thing to keep in mind is that Australia was a penal colony, and most of our forefathers were incarcerated by the British, shipped to the other side of the planet in putrid boats and then locked up for years where we performed hard labour. We are, despite this, fine with being locked up/down all over again and temporarily halting our personal freedoms for the greater good. Fun fact: one of my extended relatives was the last woman hanged in Australia!
 
gregfisk said:
I want to ask the people here from Australia a serious question and I’ll try and skirt the political side of it.

Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country? Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”? Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do? Was it a patriotic response or common sense? I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.

What I’m trying to understand is the response that so many of my fellow Americans have taken and why they think that somehow their rights are being stepped on when asked to wear a mask or stay isolated. It became very politicized here and while I don’t want to discuss that per say I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia?
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Good question gregfisk.

I live in Melbourne, and the lockdwons certainly worked here. We haven't had a community case for 41 days.Fingers crossed!

I feel the governments message was unified, that certainly helped, also we had consistent messaging and facts about about the virus.
Our Premier(Govenor) and cheif health officer Brett Sutton showed real empathy and appeared daily giving updates. Financially the govenment provided billions of dollars for those in need so people felt looked after. As a nation i think most Australians tend to think of our community as an us, not just me.
I don't beleive it was about the fines or punishments. Another huge factor is our Nations leaders tend not to undermine the advice of scientists and experts in the field and instead focus on following the science and epidemiology and explain honestly their reasons for doing so. In general i had the reassuring feeling that they where looking after our health and putting Australians health and safety before the dollar!

Of course there where some who complained and spouted Plandemic or 5g or Bill Gates something or another, though i would like to believe they where by far the minority. You know,"Empty vessel makes the most noise" and all that. :)
 
Geigs said:
One thing to keep in mind is that Australia was a penal colony, and most of our forefathers were incarcerated by the British, shipped to the other side of the planet in putrid boats and then locked up for years where we performed hard labour.
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Of course -- you all bonded. 🤠
 
gregfisk said:
Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country? Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”?
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Yes, that was definitely a big part of it. We got the same consistent message from all levels of government; local, state, and federal. The media got behind it, too so, no matter to whom or where you were listening, the message was always the same: keep your distance, wash hands, wear a mask, avoid indoor gatherings, etc. Shop owners, supermarkets, fast food outlets—you name it—got in on the act as well. Limiting number of patrons inside, painting signs for where to stand in a queue on the floor, providing free hand sanitizer, and employing staff to wipe down the handles on shopping trolleys, do crowd control, and so on.

Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do? Was it a patriotic response or common sense?
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Aussies have a long-standing tradition of sticking together and pulling on the same rope in times of crisis. So, people did it because it was the right thing to do, and because it was good for everyone.

I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.
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Definitely not that. We had our share of people who figured that the rules didn't apply to them and broke quarantine because it suited them. But those cases were rare and, in most cases, people got off the hook fairly cheaply. Having said that, fines were part of it. There are a few thousand people all up who were fined somewhere between 1000 and 4000 dollars for various breaches. But, in the grand scheme of things, there were remarkably few fines.

I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia
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No so you would notice. We had a few small demonstrations by people who argued that their rights were being stepped on or that the virus is all a hoax. But there weren't many of them, and their protests didn't amount to much.
 
I thank all of you for your thoughtful responses. I’m really appreciative of your clear and in depth explanations. I have a much better understanding of who you are as Australia’s. I only wish that we would have made the same choices.

I spent 3 weeks in Victoria, Brighton Beach to be exact. My wife and daughter absolutely loved it there, me included. My daughter was about 10 at the time and for years after she told us she was going to move there. She hasn’t but has been back and all over the world since.

It’s so incredibly frustrating here, beyond words really. People I know and care about, family included just don’t get it. It’s so politicized here that depending on which news channel you watch will depend on whether you believe the virus is an issue. Or for some, fortunately not many, it doesn’t exist at all. You are right about people being selfish, there’s no question about that. In order to explain how bad it’s been here I’d have to get deep into the politics of it so I won’t.

Guys, thanks again for explaining and answering my questions in so much depth, it’s much appreciated.
 
For non-Aussies: this latest lock down is for 72 active cases (and counting) .

For Sydneysiders: I would prepare yourself for this to last into February.
The bright side is that it looks like the numbers are climbing quickly because contact tracing is working so it may be easier to contain.
 
Dull_Apex said:
For non-Aussies: this latest lock down is for 72 active cases (and counting) .
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I would describe it as 72 KNOWN active cases.

On the upside, they are almost all linked to two closely associated clusters.

On the worrying side, there are a few links in the transmission chain that haven't yet been accounted for.

All neighbouring states have now instituted border controls with NSW. It looks like another couple of months of lining up at border checkpoints for us border communities. Just that the border checkpoints are on the other side of the border this time.
 
Nemo said:
All neighbouring states have now instituted border controls with NSW. It looks like another couple of months of lining up at border checkpoints for us border communities. Just that the border checkpoints are on the other side of the border this time.
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Yeah, it's a shame they seem insistent on using the actual border, and not letting you have a bubble that extends either side of the border, but I guess it's going to be a PITA no matter what they do.
 
What is worrying is that Queensland has found the virus in sewerage samples all over the place (from memory, Cairns, Townsville, Sunshine Coast, Brisbane, Gold Coast) when, a few days earlier, those locations tested negative. We'll have to wait a few more days to find out how this will shape up.

I'm pretty sure that all the people leaving Greater Sydney right now to get back to Queensland before they get trapped isn't helping matters either.

I really feel sorry for all the people who've had their holiday plans destroyed by this :(
 
Awww.... I missed an interesting part of this thread!

gregfisk said:
I want to ask the people here from Australia a serious question and I’ll try and skirt the political side of it.

Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country? Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”? Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do? Was it a patriotic response or common sense? I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.

What I’m trying to understand is the response that so many of my fellow Americans have taken and why they think that somehow their rights are being stepped on when asked to wear a mask or stay isolated. It became very politicized here and while I don’t want to discuss that per say I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia?
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A few people have covered this well. To me, THE answer is: cultural. The fact that any two English speaking countries can easily exchange ideas, does not mean they share the same cultural attitudes. America and Australia are very different. It can be hard to see things you take for granted. America has a prevalence of individualism, paranoia and violence baked into its mythology that would be absurd in an Australian context.

It is fun to joke about Australia's criminal heritage. Despite some mythology being rooted in outlaws like Ned Kelly; we do follow rules and are very law abiding. Narratives about 'freedom' just don't exist in Australia the way they appear to exist in America. Individual 'freedoms' arent necessarily seen as inalienable rights. We culturally accept that some rules will be made to benefit the whole at the expense of a few: wear your seat-belt, put on your helmet and give me back those automatic weapons. Smoking? Fine do it but you cant do it here. And while we're at it, pay your damn taxes.

Sure, a handful of libertarians protests - but there is never a real threat of mass protest or disorder. The rest of us just get on with it and forget it was ever an issue within five years.


JayGee said:
Some people say Australia is socialist (because it has healthcare) but that is utter nonsense. After just returning to Australia after 3 years in the US - I can say that one feeling (note subjective) I had while there was that any notion of the social - any actual social coordination - was paper thin - it felt like things could fall over at any time. This likely had to do with being in a big city - and perhaps living in a part of that city where government provided social services had been underfunded for many years (I'm not sure).
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[Edit: I misread @JayGee's post. See below #57]

As someone who is moderately well travelled... I dont agree with what you are saying. Although Australia is deeply flawed in many ways, she belongs to a small club of advanced economies where taking safety, rule-of-law and access to social services for granted is not a naive thing to do. Social coordination exists.

Why is Australia flawed? To me, Australia really is the lucky country (this is a pejorative). We haven't had value-shattering cultural shocks since WWI and WWII. We are wealthy and we haven't really had to work for it. We dig up our sovereign wealth and sell it to the highest bidder, returning pennies to the Commonwealth and allowing a few people to become absurdly rich. We havent used that opportunity to bootstrap ourselves to somewhere worthwhile. We've squandered the opportunity and have been sleep walking through this prosperity - our economy lacks diversity and we dont value add.

I will wear my left-leaning heart of my sleeve here: what you experienced is more likely a case of years of neo-liberalism. I agree the big cities can feel very mercantile and cut throat. Sydney is a prime example. Melbourne is moving fast in the same direction. Everything is for sale, grubby deals are rife and investing in public infrastructure is 'too expensive'. The thing is... Australia is in good company. This is happening all over the world.
 
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Was talking about the US - in particular the East New York part of Brooklyn.
 
I don’t know anything about Australia, but as a European who has lived a long time in the US, I’m not at all surprised about the drama in the US.

This might sound harsh (and plenty of Americans take offense), but the US deep in its core is a “Me Me Me”-society. There’s some social fabric, but it’s quite thin and superficial. In the end it almost always boils down to an individuals own personal advantage. The talk about “liberty” and “personal freedom” quite often is just a cover cause it sounds better than talking about greed. After all, it’s established that other countries have more personal freedom (there’s an index) and “liberty” is often just an umbrella (ella ella) term used to justify being awful to other members of society.

The US is driven by money, more than most or any other country in the world. I know, because I admit that it affected and infected me when I lived there. The lockdown opposition is quite frankly so strong because of the economic impact. There’s no other country where people openly say that you should let old people die to save the economy.

I am torn myself, I admit. I’m not sure if the long-term consequences of lockdown after lockdown are worse than the immediate ones of a spreading virus. I really don’t know. I don’t want to be a politician having to make these calls. It’s a lose lose situation.

to Americans who are offended: I love the country. It always has been my dream, always will be. I miss it almost every day. It’s not perfect, but it’s the most fascinating country in the world. Maybe It is BECAUSE it’s not perfect.
 
JayGee said:
Was talking about the US - in particular the East New York part of Brooklyn.
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Mia culpa!! Sorry. Forgive me! I think I misread your post?! o_O

JayGee said:
any notion of the social - any actual social coordination - was paper thin - it felt like things could fall over at any time.
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I thought you were talking about Australia! On reflection you are talking about the US... Apologies! I understand where you are coming from.

Again, sorry if I misrepresented you there!!
 
alterwisser said:
There’s no other country where people openly say that you should let old people die to save the economy.
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I guess I hang out in the wrong crowd, as I have not heard anyone say this.

What I HAVE heard is teenagers and 20-somthings saying "all old people should die" but it has nothing to do with the economy.
 
WildBoar said:
I guess I hang out in the wrong crowd, as I have not heard anyone say this.

What I HAVE heard is teenagers and 20-somthings saying "all old people should die" but it has nothing to do with the economy.
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No, that sounds like the right crowd.

(Wait, they don't mean ME, right? Just old Americans (not including @M1k3)? OK, sweet.)
 
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