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Cyrilix

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I support Dave in this- flippers increase price and scarcity- whether this is a hobby or one’s livelihood, it makes knife buying more difficult and expensive for the rest of us.
I agree with this. Flippers are just businessmen that make money at the expense of both the craftsmen and the buyers. The craftsmen deserve to be paid a good wage for their work. The buyers deserve to appreciate a good knife made by these craftsmen (and from the perspective of a craftsman, they would probably wish that their crafts can be appreciated by as many as will appreciate it). Flippers don't really deserve anything and offer nothing in the value chain. Do they make anything? Sure they do, they make things more expensive for the consumer.

Obviously sellers will hate it when people discuss their FS items. There is nothing to gain by sharing information about price history. Look at the Canadian real estate market, for example. Real estate board tries to hide all of the historical information from buyers so that they can hold all the cards, but look what's happening now. Consumers are demanding to be better informed. So the question really comes down to this, are "transparency" and "integrity" considered to be values shared by this forum? If so, then calling people out is not a problem whatsoever.
 
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cschoedler

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While I’ve never been one to post much on the forum, I’m constantly lurking in the background.

This thread has left me with a real bad taste in my mouth.

I have the same Suisin Tanryu Riverie has listed for sale.

EXACT same. Kizuna and all. From the korin event. Do I think his asking price is out of line. Not at all.

I don’t live in NYC. Sure would be nice. I’ve considered coming to town for the annual Suisin event. Never happened.

This year I was able to convince a friends husband to stand in line at korin for me for $250.

Is the knife still worth $195?

Am I a sucker?

I paid $250 more than they were being sold for...

I got a killer knife for $400 less than retail.

If I wanted to sell it, what’s a fair price?

$195 because that’s what Korin sold it for?

$475 because that’s what I have in it?(including shipping)

What F#####g daveb thinks is fair?

If someone doesn’t buy it, so be it.

The price will drop until someone thinks it’s as good of a deal as I did.

End of the day the amount of effort that went into acquiring my knife was WAY more than $195.

If what Riverie did is against the “spirit of the forum” F### it, I’m over it.

But then again I’m just a lurker anyway, what do I know.
 

Cyrilix

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While I’ve never been one to post much on the forum, I’m constantly lurking in the background.

This thread has left me with a real bad taste in my mouth.

I have the same Suisin Tanryu Riverie has listed for sale.

EXACT same. Kizuna and all. From the korin event. Do I think his asking price is out of line. Not at all.

I don’t live in NYC. Sure would be nice. I’ve considered coming to town for the annual Suisin event. Never happened.

This year I was able to convince a friends husband to stand in line at korin for me for $250.

Is the knife still worth $195?

Am I a sucker?

I paid $250 more than they were being sold for...

I got a killer knife for $400 less than retail.

If I wanted to sell it, what’s a fair price?

$195 because that’s what Korin sold it for?

$475 because that’s what I have in it?(including shipping)

What F#####g daveb thinks is fair?

If someone doesn’t buy it, so be it.

The price will drop until someone thinks it’s as good of a deal as I did.

End of the day the amount of effort that went into acquiring my knife was WAY more than $195.

If what Riverie did is against the “spirit of the forum” F### it, I’m over it.

But then again I’m just a lurker anyway, what do I know.
It's not a problem. We all have opinions. Just like you get a bad taste from this thread, others get a bad taste from other things. As long as everyone is free to talk it out without spamming. They can post messages, read messages, or ignore messages. It's great!

Personally, I dislike flippers. There is the guy that will buy an amazing knife for a discount, use it seriously, and then perhaps sell it to someone else at market price. Then, there's the guy that buys multiple knives and keeps them in the box, only to flip them later. These two people are different. I assume you're more of the former.

By the way, your emotions run high, but even so, you should still strive to make your points politely. It's basic respect.
 

milkbaby

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Going to Korin to "invest" in a promotional sale so that you can flip them within this community, on this forum is simply poor form. I'm sure your's are not the only knives from that promo that are being or were flipped - but they're the only ones here. Your claims of but, but, but, it's "market price" fall on (my) deaf ears when your sole intent was to flip them. But I'll say again it's within the rules and I'll not post anything negative within your bst post.
While the letter of the rule is that no one shall post negatively on a thread in the BST, your post specifically called out a specific user and their specific items for sale on a different sub-forum of KKF. It could easily be argued that this is also "poor form".

There is a specific rule against negative posts on a thread in the BST, perhaps to let the free market rule and not have people nixing a sale, be bashing each other, or other negative consequences that may follow. The result of directly calling out somebody specifically on another sub-forum do not seem to wholly different as we can see, other than it is not directly seen by people perusing BST, which I grant is a material difference. But the issue I'm getting at is whether you want to allow everybody to say "hey [specific user] is flipping [specific knife] on BST right now" on a different sub-forum. If so, why shouldn't I start "The Flipper Thread" on this board so everybody can point fingers or I mean be an informed customer? :D
 

lemeneid

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So I guess Jon and Maxim, etc are all flippers then too. They buy the knives for cheapass prices in Japan then go back to US/EU and sell them for astronomically high prices. I demand BST knives be sold and bought at prices which the makers themselves priced them at :p

In fact they should all close down since knives should only be bought and sold through BST at Japan prices. No point bringing them to the US/EU and introducing nice new knives to us all
 

madelinez

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My 2 cents is that if you buy a knife from an external site and sell it here for more, there's no harm done. If you buy it from the BST section and then resell for a higher cost that's a lot worse because you're directly profiting off your community and adding nothing of value. KKF shouldn't be ebay, it should be a bunch of knife/cooking enthusiasts.
 

Luftmensch

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Long time lurker. Newish participant. I only had ONE really, really pleasant experience on BST (you know who you are! Thank you for being a gentleman). The rest of my purchases have been retail...

Speculators and rent seekers exist everywhere. I am not pleased with that reality but there is no point shouting into the wind. I suppose it is an inevitable consequence of a relatively free market.

Something that's a bit of a regression with the new forum is the seller is able to modify the post and remove the price after the knife's sold. Seeing more and more of them every day.
+1

I think if original postings on BST are required to include the price, pictures and are not editable, it would at least leave a permanent record of market trends. Actually perhaps even subsequent posts in a BST thread should be non-editable to preserve a record of the sale (e.g. price drops).

There is nothing to prevent private negotiation between buyer and seller if mates-rates want to be preserved


I think the community's biggest role should be in 'policing' sellers who sell junk, fakes and dishonest listings. No one wants to receive a box of ****** rocks (unless they are superb jnats) or a rusty chipped knife when they were lead to believe otherwise. After that.... the relationship between price and value can be very individual judgements, particularly for rare items. Most people here seem pretty witty and smart - I think BST can handle a bit subjectivity but the community should try to stamp out blatant dishonesty...
 

kdeleon

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+1 on the suggestion to make the origin price and pictures permanent. This will help both buyers and sellers. For example, I saw a knife that I liked but someone else bought it. I went back to reference the cost so I would know what I should consider paying in the future, but the price and pictures were immediately removed after the sale completed. On the other side, I am considering selling a few of my knives. So I tried to go through the past sales to find a good starting price. But many of the old ads have had the prices removed. I would like to start off with a fair price but now I’m just guessing. I might be too low and lose some serious money or too high and get accused of gouging the system.
 

alterwisser

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I agree with this. Flippers are just businessmen that make money at the expense of both the craftsmen and the buyers. The craftsmen deserve to be paid a good wage for their work. The buyers deserve to appreciate a good knife made by these craftsmen (and from the perspective of a craftsman, they would probably wish that their crafts can be appreciated by as many as will appreciate it). Flippers don't really deserve anything and offer nothing in the value chain. Do they make anything? Sure they do, they make things more expensive for the consumer.
At the risk of being called one-sided ...

1) If Korin hadn't sold the knife at under market value, it could not have been flipped in the first place. So at least when it comes to the craftsmen, Korin is more at fault for this situation. As is the craftsman himself, who most likely agreed to this promotion (or at least the company he works for ... where he might not even be paid per item but rather an hourly wage ... which would make it pointless for what the knife sells)

2) Adding nothing in the value chain is something that can be said to about any dealer and especially wholesaler. I know this is rather black and white and that vendors like Jon add services like impeccable quality control and such ... BUT most of the old folks around here remember the days when you were able to buy directly from Ashi Hamono ... and the difference in prices. And even THEN you somehow could argue that there are people in the value chain who add nothing, who make nothing ... because there sure as hell is administrative staff at Ashi ... Point is: If you want to take out any and all non-value-adding from the chain, you need to limit yourself to buying from one-man-shop custom makers like Robin, Ian Rogers, Butch etc. And you'd have to find a way of not paying VAT or other taxes (depending on country), because that sure as hell doesn't add any value (LOL .. just joking ...)


For the sake of transparency and because I've been accused of having "skin in the game": I've never sold a knife at a profit or purchased a knife with the intent of selling it right away. Nor do I like the idea of folks going to Korin (Or Supreme or apple store etc.) to buy an item just to sell it ... but then again: Everyone is free to get in line themselves, and no one has to buy the item.

I think this almost boils down to criticizing a (somewhat) free market system itself and with that the fact that some people just have the money to not give a sh** and buy at any price.
 
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alterwisser

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Everyone who criticizes Dave ...

Consider for a second the position he's in:

When he's doing a great job, no one really thanks him for it

When he's doing something people don't agree with, he's being attacked, often mercilessly


I wouldn't wanna be in his shoes. I know he can be polarizing sometimes, but IMHO he's a good guy. I've met him in person and I can't say anything bad about him, to the contrary.

He's entitled to an opinion, just like everybody else here. He's a member here, first and foremost. As long as he's not abusing his powers as a mod by deleting comments or banning folks who have arguments with him, he should be able to participate like anyone else.

I mean, honestly: Try to find a sucker who is willing to just be a moderator, not a participator ... and doing that for free. Good luck
 

Bert2368

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Here we go, but the popcorn is usually overpriced at circuses.


I've been an admin on a site with a section for members to buy, sell, swap or even give away equipment and supplies. This existed with the express statements that all transactions were between buyer and seller, site owner and admins had NOTHING TO DO with how your transactions might go.

It still turned into a circus several times per year, people would do crazy stuff, folks occasionally offered or requested downright illegal or just unethical to distribute things. It frequently took up way too much moderator/admin time and created more dissension and bad feelings between members than anything else.

Adam Smith was some kind of enlightenment era idealist, he did not describe how and WHY tradeing tends to work out in the real world.

People are not well informed "rational" actors.

We are all too frequently just ignorant or crazy monkeys with fancy shoes and too many tools.

In a closed system, the sharpest, least charitable and/or least ethical WILL end up with all the shekels in their corner, the repeated application of even a small % advantge from "loose ethics" = winning the long game. My mom said it best: "The turds will always float to the top of the punchbowl".
 

alterwisser

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I think the community's biggest role should be in 'policing' sellers who sell junk, fakes and dishonest listings. No one wants to receive a box of ****** rocks (unless they are superb jnats) or a rusty chipped knife when they were lead to believe otherwise. After that.... the relationship between price and value can be very individual judgements, particularly for rare items. Most people here seem pretty witty and smart - I think BST can handle a bit subjectivity but the community should try to stamp out blatant dishonesty...
I think it's impossible for the forum to monitor and policing sellers or the BST. It's always being pointed out ... the market place is just provided as platform, nothing else.

If the forum (or rather it's admins and mods) would actively regulate the BST section they'd open a whole can of worms, legally as well ... they might be liable in case transaction go south. Can't touch that.
 

Luftmensch

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I think it's impossible for the forum to monitor and policing sellers or the BST. It's always being pointed out ... the market place is just provided as platform, nothing else.

If the forum (or rather it's admins and mods) would actively regulate the BST section they'd open a whole can of worms, legally as well ... they might be liable in case transaction go south. Can't touch that.
For sure. 'Policing' is perhaps a poor choice of words. Nobody is paid to do so. Even if they were, it is not gratifying work. Lets face it... true customer protections are weak (to non-existent), particularly across international boarders. These sorts of markets hold a lot of risk for the buyer. If you want a silver lining, the 'good news' story here is how many honest and fair transactions take place. Surely it is the majority by a healthy margin (I sure hope so)!!?

By 'policing' I suppose I am referring to the statement (since it has been raised): "Negative comments in sales threads are forbidden and will result in revocation of B/S/T forum privileges". Again... generally I think the principle of not using discussion to affect prices is reasonable. But when it comes to BST posts originating from people who are known to be selling bad goods - this is a case where I think 'negative' comments are fair game.
 

alterwisser

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For sure. 'Policing' is perhaps a poor choice of words. Nobody is paid to do so. Even if they were, it is not gratifying work. Lets face it... true customer protections are weak (to non-existent), particularly across international boarders. These sorts of markets hold a lot of risk for the buyer. If you want a silver lining, the 'good news' story here is how many honest and fair transactions take place. Surely it is the majority by a healthy margin (I sure hope so)!!?

By 'policing' I suppose I am referring to the statement (since it has been raised): "Negative comments in sales threads are forbidden and will result in revocation of B/S/T forum privileges". Again... generally I think the principle of not using discussion to affect prices is reasonable. But when it comes to BST posts originating from people who are known to be selling bad goods - this is a case where I think 'negative' comments are fair game.
I agree, customer protections are weak ... and getting weaker by the day with administrations in certain countries killing more of them by the minute ...

I generally trust people ... and I've been burned before. I tend to buy only from members that are very active and have been for a while ... but frankly, I have not bought much off BST (neither here nor other forums) recently. A lot of the transactions are going on behind the scenes anyway. If there's a knife that I am interested in I usually go hunt it down and ask owners directly if they're willing to sell it ...
 

ecchef

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DaveB - there is no excuse here - so just come out and apologise and say you were wrong - that’s all we expect .....no less no more
6 posts in nearly 3 years. If you did have a dog in this fight, it would only have one leg.
 

WildBoar

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FS threads that get closed after a sale should be checked by the Mods and anything deleted (pics, price) should be restored, and the thread locked so it cannot be modified. More work for the Nods, but perhaps one or two more could be added to address this.
 

Cyrilix

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So I guess Jon and Maxim, etc are all flippers then too. They buy the knives for cheapass prices in Japan then go back to US/EU and sell them for astronomically high prices. I demand BST knives be sold and bought at prices which the makers themselves priced them at :p

In fact they should all close down since knives should only be bought and sold through BST at Japan prices. No point bringing them to the US/EU and introducing nice new knives to us all
Not really. They provide PLENTY of value in the value chain. They set up direct relationships with the craftsmen so they can introduce us to their knives. They break down the language barriers between Western consumers and these craftsmen. They're also there to vet products and provide you with customer service, all things that I want as a consumer. Jon also has a store where you can hold and feel the goods before buying. This is nothing like a flipper.
 

Cyrilix

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At the risk of being called one-sided ...

1) If Korin hadn't sold the knife at under market value, it could not have been flipped in the first place. So at least when it comes to the craftsmen, Korin is more at fault for this situation. As is the craftsman himself, who most likely agreed to this promotion (or at least the company he works for ... where he might not even be paid per item but rather an hourly wage ... which would make it pointless for what the knife sells)

2) Adding nothing in the value chain is something that can be said to about any dealer and especially wholesaler. I know this is rather black and white and that vendors like Jon add services like impeccable quality control and such ... BUT most of the old folks around here remember the days when you were able to buy directly from Ashi Hamono ... and the difference in prices. And even THEN you somehow could argue that there are people in the value chain who add nothing, who make nothing ... because there sure as hell is administrative staff at Ashi ... Point is: If you want to take out any and all non-value-adding from the chain, you need to limit yourself to buying from one-man-shop custom makers like Robin, Ian Rogers, Butch etc. And you'd have to find a way of not paying VAT or other taxes (depending on country), because that sure as hell doesn't add any value (LOL .. just joking ...)


For the sake of transparency and because I've been accused of having "skin in the game": I've never sold a knife at a profit or purchased a knife with the intent of selling it right away. Nor do I like the idea of folks going to Korin (Or Supreme or apple store etc.) to buy an item just to sell it ... but then again: Everyone is free to get in line themselves, and no one has to buy the item.

I think this almost boils down to criticizing a (somewhat) free market system itself and with that the fact that some people just have the money to not give a sh** and buy at any price.
I didn't criticize buyers. I also criticized your negative tone when it comes to alloeing people to post information that may be counter to the wishes of a flipper. The buyer can do what they want with that information, right? No need to stop the free flow of information at the seller's "conflict of interest filled" wishes.
 

Dhoff

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I sincerely hope this thread will die out soon. Nothing constructive seems to come out of it. Purely negative outcome.
 

lemeneid

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Not really. They provide PLENTY of value in the value chain. They set up direct relationships with the craftsmen so they can introduce us to their knives. They break down the language barriers between Western consumers and these craftsmen. They're also there to vet products and provide you with customer service, all things that I want as a consumer. Jon also has a store where you can hold and feel the goods before buying. This is nothing like a flipper.
Disagree. Aside from having a storefront or website, anyone could just as easily go to Japan, make relationships with the craftsmen and dealers, return with a couple of Ashis, Katos, Shigs et. al. and sell them for a handsome profit too. In fact, I believe some members here have gone and visited craftsmen like Watanabe, TF, etc... and have come back with nice customs and one-offs that I am sure would sell for a very tidy sum.

Nothing against retailers like Jon or Maxim, I think they've managed to find a way to turn their passion or hobby into a good source of income and we have benefited from their freely shared knowledge and experience. Think those who are butthurt probably did not spend enough time or effort in trying to make some side income from their hobby. Personally, if I could find a way to make some cash or make a living out of my hobby or past time, why not? It brings me joy and brings me cash.

So yes, people like Jon, Maxim, et. al. ARE FLIPPERS, they just do it more professionally.

Also, maybe sarcasm doesn't really translate well over the internet, but my previous post was absolutely meant in jest.
 
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