Etiquette of hiding behind a second account and criticizing others for what I do on a daily basis

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Luftmensch

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They're also there to vet products and provide you with customer service, all things that I want as a consumer. Jon also has a store where you can hold and feel the goods before buying. This is nothing like a flipper.
Me thinks @lemeneid is being deliberately outrageous... But consumer law does cover trade at bricks and mortar stores. In some countries this can be quite strong... So you are right, it certainly derisks transactions.
 

Interapid101

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I sincerely hope this thread will die out soon. Nothing constructive seems to come out of it. Purely negative outcome.
My ignore list is happy with the outcome. Who knows how many years or bad transactions it would have taken to ID those users.
 

alterwisser

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I didn't criticize buyers. I also criticized your negative tone when it comes to alloeing people to post information that may be counter to the wishes of a flipper. The buyer can do what they want with that information, right? No need to stop the free flow of information at the seller's "conflict of interest filled" wishes.
I’m sorry, but show me where I didn’t allow others to post information?

I merely voiced my opinion, just like you did and are doing.

You call my tone negative because you don’t agree with what I state. I also don’t agree with what you say, but that’s ok. As @chinacats said, we’re all entitled to our opinions ...
 

Cyrilix

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Disagree. Aside from having a storefront or website, anyone could just as easily go to Japan, make relationships with the craftsmen and dealers, return with a couple of Ashis, Katos, Shigs et. al. and sell them for a handsome profit too. In fact, I believe some members here have gone and visited craftsmen like Watanabe, TF, etc... and have come back with nice customs and one-offs that I am sure would sell for a very tidy sum.

Nothing against retailers like Jon or Maxim, I think they've managed to find a way to turn their passion or hobby into a good source of income and we have benefited from their freely shared knowledge and experience. Think those who are butthurt probably did not spend enough time or effort in trying to make some side income from their hobby. Personally, if I could find a way to make some cash or make a living out of my hobby or past time, why not? It brings me joy and brings me cash.

So yes, people like Jon, Maxim, et. al. ARE FLIPPERS, they just do it more professionally.

Also, maybe sarcasm doesn't really translate well over the internet, but my previous post was absolutely meant in jest.
Alright, then go buy a plane ticket to Japan, spend the time to develop these relationships, test out the quality of product, and figure out the logistics and pricing. You're free to start your business, then deal with customer relationships.

I don't want to do any of that so I'll skip all that and just buy a good knife from a trusted source and I think most people would want to do the same. But, more power to Jon and Maxim. I appreciate what they do for me and the community.
 

Cyrilix

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I’m sorry, but show me where I didn’t allow others to post information?

I merely voiced my opinion, just like you did and are doing.

You call my tone negative because you don’t agree with what I state. I also don’t agree with what you say, but that’s ok. As @chinacats said, we’re all entitled to our opinions ...
If that's the case then I'm probably wrong and assumed too much. You didn't explicitly say that information couldn't be shared. I simply felt it. My apologies.
 

lemeneid

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Alright, then go buy a plane ticket to Japan, spend the time to develop these relationships, test out the quality of product, and figure out the logistics and pricing. You're free to start your business, then deal with customer relationships.

I don't want to do any of that so I'll skip all that and just buy a good knife from a trusted source and I think most people would want to do the same. But, more power to Jon and Maxim. I appreciate what they do for me and the community.
As a matter of fact I have, just not for knives, but I do have some side income rolling in for me from Japan, so yes, I do travel to Japan frequently, at least once every two months to meet with my dealer and his supplier. We get outrageously drunk over yakitori and sake. I still visit the farms and factories where my products come from time to time to bring home to sell.

In fact I could do the same for knives, the areas I visit are mostly Kyoto and Shiga which is right beside Sakai, I could spend a few extra days to build relationships with knife makers and dealers too, but do I want to? Only if it does bring in more than what I do in Japan too.

Also, does it make a difference if you're buying on BST from a trusted member who happens to be a flipper???
Hehe... A few minutes too late. Yeah... careful now... this is literally a literal place!
Me thinks @lemeneid is being deliberately outrageous... But consumer law does cover trade at bricks and mortar stores. In some countries this can be quite strong... So you are right, it certainly derisks transactions.
Lol, I thought the smiley face would blow my cover there!:p
 
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ian

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I think the reason people are complaining about flipping here is that historically, BST was more for selling used knives at a discount, rather than BNIB knives at a profit. (At least, this is what I understand second-hand. I’ve only been around here for a year and a bit.) It’s totally legitimate to be disappointed that the character of the forum has changed.

The difference with Jon and Maksim is that they’re not putting knives on BST. They are retailers. They have websites. They are upfront about the services they offer, and we here appreciate these services. This has nothing to do with people starting to use the BST forum for a purpose other than what was intended.
 

Jkts

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Retailers add value- they bring new and vetted product to various cities and countries. They bring product that the average consumer can’t access. They pay taxes and they are bound by business laws and regulations. They do mark up, but if they charge too high, they can be undercut by competitors.

Flippers take that same product and make it available to those who can afford more and less available to those with fewer resources. They don’t add to the market. Many of the folks here are line cooks and restaurant staff who love to have a great knives, and not large amounts of expendable income.

Using a liquor analogy, when was the last time you bought a bottle of pappy off the shelf at msrp (if you were so inclined). Liquor tasting used to be a community of folks who shared information and collectively enjoyed the pursuit of tasting great product. It devolved into status symbols, speculation, treasure hunting, and flipping. Over twenty years, you can’t buy the classic high end bourbons, unless you have connections and enough cash.

The buying of hand crafted, limited production Japanese knives is going that way. While flippers contribute to that, the evolution of this niche market is inevitable. Lord help us if cooks illustrated or some other media ever made these knives more mainstream.
 

Andrew

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Retailers add value- they bring new and vetted product to various cities and countries. They bring product that the average consumer can’t access. They pay taxes and they are bound by business laws and regulations. They do mark up, but if they charge too high, they can be undercut by competitors.

Flippers take that same product and make it available to those who can afford more and less available to those with fewer resources. They don’t add to the market. Many of the folks here are line cooks and restaurant staff who love to have a great knives, and not large amounts of expendable income.

Using a liquor analogy, when was the last time you bought a bottle of pappy off the shelf at msrp (if you were so inclined). Liquor tasting used to be a community of folks who shared information and collectively enjoyed the pursuit of tasting great product. It devolved into status symbols, speculation, treasure hunting, and flipping. Over twenty years, you can’t buy the classic high end bourbons, unless you have connections and enough cash.

The buying of hand crafted, limited production Japanese knives is going that way. While flippers contribute to that, the evolution of this niche market is inevitable. Lord help us if cooks illustrated or some other media ever made these knives more mainstream.
I couldn't agree more with the above.

I'm sure we've all observed this phenomenon in other areas, whiskey is a good example, collectible shoes, watches, high end cars, clothing, handbags, etc., etc., etc. It's not new to me...

I guess where I have issue is when someone buys something collectible only to sell it for a profit, essentially robbing other passionate fans of the opportunity to enjoy something without having to pay for your opportunity to get there first. I understand it's part and parcel of collecting in 2019, but it's still frustrating. I don't think the OP violated anything official, but it does impact my personal feelings about the actions and willingness to transact with folks like that in the future.

I'm somewhat concerned that social media is the driving force behind these situations, as we've become a much more show-off society as a result of social media, and it's unfortunately also much easier to figure out what are the highly desirable models/makes/etc based on all the media attention... It's a bummer, but I don't know if there's anything that can be done to really change things on a large scale.

I really appreciate this forum, the knowledge shared, experiences shared, and knives shared via BST. I don't post often, but I've checked the site almost daily for years. Thank you to all that make this place a really fun part of my digital life :)
 

panda

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If I ever end up putting a high value super rare knife up for grabs, I'm selling it at a fair price and going to do my own vetting process to see if they are a knife user or just a collector. I would want it to go to someone who normally wouldn't have the opprtunity to try one because they don't have a bunch of money to throw at by paying inflated prices to be able to skip the line.. people who would appreciate the knife deserve it more than those that would just stick it in a display or only want it as a means to make a quick buck.
 

MontezumaBoy

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I'm starting to get concerned that all of the "folks" posting here are actually just one person ... possibly even (dare I say it - daveB's) multiple personalities ... including yours truly (after all I know I have several ,,,)! The mind boggles at just the thought of it ...

Now how about some black Mole covered popcorn ...
 

Eloh

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I guess the flippers are more a symptom of too much collectors who drive up the prices for pro users. at least thats how i feel ;)
 

alterwisser

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If I ever end up putting a high value super rare knife up for grabs, I'm selling it at a fair price and going to do my own vetting process to see if they are a knife user or just a collector. I would want it to go to someone who normally wouldn't have the opprtunity to try one because they don't have a bunch of money to throw at by paying inflated prices to be able to skip the line.. people who would appreciate the knife deserve it more than those that would just stick it in a display or only want it as a means to make a quick buck.
Absolutely +1

When I sell a really nice knife I want the right person to buy it. I also don’t have a problem taking less then the market value in that case ...
 

lemeneid

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I guess the flippers are more a symptom of too much collectors who drive up the prices for pro users. at least thats how i feel ;)
This is partially true. I bet if the Ashi were used in any way, the price wouldn’t be that high. But at the same time, who would buy a beat up Ashi? That’s why most of these knives end up unused most of the time.

But asthetics aside, why would anyone buy an Ashi to use. Cutting-wise, there are better knives out there.
 

ashy2classy

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This is partially true. I bet if the Ashi were used in any way, the price wouldn’t be that high. But at the same time, who would buy a beat up Ashi? That’s why most of these knives end up unused most of the time.

But asthetics aside, why would anyone buy an Ashi to use. Cutting-wise, there are better knives out there.
So you buy them for an investment or just because it's so rare and made by a legend? I don't get the concept of buying a knife to just look at or store away to sell later. If I spend thousands of dollars on a knife I'm gonna ****in use it! *SHRUG*
 

WildBoar

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Disagree. Aside from having a storefront or website, anyone could just as easily go to Japan, make relationships with the craftsmen and dealers, return with a couple of Ashis, Katos, Shigs et. al. and sell them for a handsome profit too. In fact, I believe some members here have gone and visited craftsmen like Watanabe, TF, etc... and have come back with nice customs and one-offs that I am sure would sell for a very tidy sum.

So yes, people like Jon, Maxim, et. al. ARE FLIPPERS, they just do it more professionally.
The last time I checked it wasn't free to fly to Japan, find places to eat and sleep, etc. Those are real costs that add to the initial cost of the goods.

As far as Jon and Maxim being flippers, that is an odd way of looking at two established retailers. They serve as importers and retailers, have real/ hard costs such as utility payments, rent payments (Jon)/ construction costs (Maxim), import duties, web sites, etc.

It is normal in the US for goods to sell at retail for 3 times the wholesale cost, due to all of the overhead and direct costs.

Maybe in a dream world we could all buy every single good and service we needed directly through the manufacturer, so no other costs are added other then processing/ shipping/ duties, but that is pretty impossible.

Heck, next time I go to a restaurant and I see them serving raw food (I'm looking at you, sushi restaurants), I will get on a soapbox and expose the restaurant for 'flipping' the food. Since they did not even cook it, there is no reason I should pay more for the food then they paid for it.
 

lemeneid

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So you buy them for an investment or just because it's so rare and made by a legend? I don't get the concept of buying a knife to just look at or store away to sell later. If I spend thousands of dollars on a knife I'm gonna ****in use it! *SHRUG*
Everyone has different goals in their hobbies, what can I say. Some collect, some flip, some use. There isn’t a right or wrong here, just pointing out that everything said here is a valid argument.
 

Bodine

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This has been an interesting read. To me, a knife is a tool to be used. As for the collectors, let the market dictate the price, but posting under another name does not seem cool to me.
 

Angie

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Seems I'm going to have to carefully read this after just scanning it. Seems to be a very hot topic. I'm auditing the actual vendors to make sure the ones that are vendors have the badge. And I"ll have to look into this new flipper events happening in BST. I have to make sure those that are vendors/professionals have value for being one.
 

Nemo

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Not really. They provide PLENTY of value in the value chain. They set up direct relationships with the craftsmen so they can introduce us to their knives. They break down the language barriers between Western consumers and these craftsmen. They're also there to vet products and provide you with customer service, all things that I want as a consumer. Jon also has a store where you can hold and feel the goods before buying. This is nothing like a flipper.
The good vendors also guarantee their products and fix any problems a knife may have. This is quite a different business model to flipping.
 

Nemo

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Disagree. Aside from having a storefront or website, anyone could just as easily go to Japan, make relationships with the craftsmen and dealers, return with a couple of Ashis, Katos, Shigs et. al. and sell them for a handsome profit too. In fact, I believe some members here have gone and visited craftsmen like Watanabe, TF, etc... and have come back with nice customs and one-offs that I am sure would sell for a very tidy sum.

Nothing against retailers like Jon or Maxim, I think they've managed to find a way to turn their passion or hobby into a good source of income and we have benefited from their freely shared knowledge and experience. Think those who are butthurt probably did not spend enough time or effort in trying to make some side income from their hobby. Personally, if I could find a way to make some cash or make a living out of my hobby or past time, why not? It brings me joy and brings me cash.

So yes, people like Jon, Maxim, et. al. ARE FLIPPERS, they just do it more professionally.

Also, maybe sarcasm doesn't really translate well over the internet, but my previous post was absolutely meant in jest.
Storefront, websites, building up relationships, skills and knowledge, pre and after sales service... etc... these are things that take time, effort and money and therefore are adding value to the chain.

Sure I could learn to speak Japanese fluently (and develop an adequately deep understanding of Japanese culture), go to Japan, build relationships with knifemakers, curate the knives that I think will work well in my market (and maybe take the risk of sometimes getting it wrong), invest tens or hundreds of thousands in placing large orders, develop excellent sharpening skills, set up a website and a shop. Then I still have to employ skilled staff (or invest in training them), provide excellent pre and post sales service including warranties and fixing any problem knives.

The only problem is that I've now invested years of my life and six or seven figures in my business. This is value adding and it's what flippers don't do.
 
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