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Extra-coarse-grit stone recommendation requested.

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Qapla'

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The quick info:

Main uses: Most often honbazuke'ing single-bevel carbon-steel knives, though I would prefer something versatile enough to be used on other steels (e.g. if a "normal" knife needs to be repaired).
Water use: Splash-and-go preferred, conventional-soaking ok. No permasoaking.
Other specifics of use: Must be resurfaceable with an Atoma 140.
Next stone in progression: JNS Matsukusuyama 300

What I'm currently looking at (these are all "gambles", as I am unfamiliar with any of them):
* Sword-polisher-style Kongoto stones in the ~150 range. (This sort of thing might be only really good for low-alloy steels, though.)
* Naniwa Carbon-Lobster 80
* Nubatama Green 180 or Platinum 150

What do you all consider recommendable for these uses?
 

Matus

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Shapton Pro 120 and a LOT of pressure. I would recommend to flatten it with sandpapered though. Any stone this coarse will tend to wear out unnecessarily fast. JNS300 will be a good next step.
To make you the stone last longer just glue it on a piece of wood or hard PVC
 

ian

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“Must be resurfaceable with an Atoma 140.“ seems to kill the Pro 120.

Glass 120 is resurfaceable with an Atoma. 🤷
 

GorillaGrunt

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In my experience anything coarser than 300 or so, the Atoma will still abrade it but the diamonds don’t last long at all. Sandpaper or even a cheap coarse stone is probably a more cost effective solution for flattening. I’ve got a Shapton Glass 120, don’t like it, pretty much use that for flattening other stones. Shapton Pro 120, that one’s not bad. Sigma 240, well known for working incredibly fast, dishing fast and messily, and feeling and sounding just terrible but this stone gets it done. I’m also not convinced that anything I’ve tried has given me better results than a 220 pink brick (except the 240 with its aforementioned drawbacks).
 

kayman67

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Surface Shapton Pro 120 and all those glazing SiC coarse stones with this. It's 100x faster and better than a brand new Atoma 140.
 

jacko9

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The quick info:

Main uses: Most often honbazuke'ing single-bevel carbon-steel knives, though I would prefer something versatile enough to be used on other steels (e.g. if a "normal" knife needs to be repaired).
Water use: Splash-and-go preferred, conventional-soaking ok. No permasoaking.
Other specifics of use: Must be resurfaceable with an Atoma 140.
Next stone in progression: JNS Matsukusuyama 300

What I'm currently looking at (these are all "gambles", as I am unfamiliar with any of them):
* Sword-polisher-style Kongoto stones in the ~150 range. (This sort of thing might be only really good for low-alloy steels, though.)
* Naniwa Carbon-Lobster 80
* Nubatama Green 180 or Platinum 150

What do you all consider recommendable for these uses?
I started with the Nubatama 150 but it was way too thirsty with water almost just running right through it. Then I got the Nubatama 180 Black (the 220 black was out of stock) and I now have my course stone and it can be flattened with the Atoma 140. The 180 black is a pretty durable stone as well as I do all my sharpening in my wood shop and the stone was accidentally shoved off my bench onto the concrete with just a little nick at the edge.
 

ian

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Surface Shapton Pro 120 and all those glazing SiC coarse stones with this. It's 100x faster and better than a brand new Atoma 140.
It’s not a soft backing, right?
 

Qapla'

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Sounds like it might be time to use different diamond-plates or to use sandpaper then.

Like the Shapton Pro 120, I liked the Nubatama Black 180 a lot at first, but it clogged quite badly over extended use. Though unlike the Shapton Pro 120, the Nubatama Black 180 is resurfaceable with Atoma's and a normal amount of pressure. It's still usable, but only as a "slurry source" that I'm constantly using the Atoma on, and not so usable as a normal stone the way my stones of other grit-levels are. (So far I have only been using it for white-steel.)
 
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inferno

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its not recommended to flatten coarse stones with d plates. the grit from the stones is so coarse so it will kinda remove the diamonds on the plates.
you can of coarse do it. but you will kill your diamond plate quite quickly. better get a sacrificial SiC stone coarse. or SiC powder.
------------

as for the stones:
Sigma 240 is quite good. it plows massive deep scratches in the steel. its a soaker and imo needs to be sealed to be usable at all. semi muddy. wears quite fast.

shapton pro 120 is very fast if you can push very hard. otherwise i'd say its only on par with the shapton 220. s&g.

shapton pro 220, s&g. muddy or not depending on how you use it. its fast. this is my favorite coarse stone. i thinks its better than the sigma.

glass 220. faster than the pro, slower to wear. only 7-8mm of stone though. very good i think. i just would like to see a 15-20mm of this one.

100 grit black SiC stone (no oil, sealed). total crap. it cut for like 1 minute then it kinda stopped cutting. its good for flattening other coarse stones though!

India copy (C/F) ran with water, sealed. not very good imo. it doesn't release any abrasive so when it stops cutting you need to resurface it.

----------------

the king/sun tiger 220/240 green SiC might be similar to the sigma, its half the price since its twice as big.
 

M1k3

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Has anyone tried these? Suehiro GC-3 Kongou-to #180 Knife Sharpening Stone


 
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kayman67

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It’s not a soft backing, right?
The actual plate is rigid enough for surface conditioning and even removal of various high spots. Pretty cheap usually and they last long after anything diamond plate sharpening related would. I've been using these pads for years, but only recently started to test on various stones just to see how far could they be used. Turns out there is no real limit considerig the grits available as well.
 

spaceconvoy

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I've used those in pottery, they're nice and make you wonder why atomas are so expensive. The foam block is pretty dense, and like kayman says, the diamond plate has enough stiffness on its own. It keeps pretty flat if you don't put any downward pressure on it. Would be useful for resurfacing a stone, but maybe not flattening just because of how small they are. Might end up with a nearly-flat dish, but I don't know, maybe it works.
 

Kawa

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its not recommended to flatten coarse stones with d plates. the grit from the stones is so coarse so it will kinda remove the diamonds on the plates.
you can of coarse do it. but you will kill your diamond plate quite quickly. better get a sacrificial SiC stone coarse. or SiC powder.
------------

as for the stones:
Sigma 240 is quite good. it plows massive deep scratches in the steel. its a soaker and imo needs to be sealed to be usable at all. semi muddy. wears quite fast.

shapton pro 120 is very fast if you can push very hard. otherwise i'd say its only on par with the shapton 220. s&g.

shapton pro 220, s&g. muddy or not depending on how you use it. its fast. this is my favorite coarse stone. i thinks its better than the sigma.

glass 220. faster than the pro, slower to wear. only 7-8mm of stone though. very good i think. i just would like to see a 15-20mm of this one.

100 grit black SiC stone (no oil, sealed). total crap. it cut for like 1 minute then it kinda stopped cutting. its good for flattening other coarse stones though!

India copy (C/F) ran with water, sealed. not very good imo. it doesn't release any abrasive so when it stops cutting you need to resurface it.

----------------

the king/sun tiger 220/240 green SiC might be similar to the sigma, its half the price since its twice as big.
I can add to this my experience with Shapton glass 120, the only one u didnt use it seems:

doesnt feel 'double as coarse' as the shapton pro 220 (which i also have and like very much)
Biggest minus is that it glazes within a few minutes, then it acts like my chosera 600...
shapton pro 220 keeps it gritt perfectly while it doesn't ditch or wears extremely fast. My naniwa superstone 220 is just as fast as the shapton pro 220, but wears twice as fast.
SiC brings the glass 120 back to original, but again, for only a few minutes.

I would go pro 220, it's s&g and a fast and reliable cutter for not too much money
I keep it flat with a Naniwa 220 flattening stone. Works perfectly, so the atoma140 will work i guess
 

Kawa

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The quick info:

Main uses: Most often honbazuke'ing single-bevel carbon-steel knives, though I would prefer something versatile enough to be used on other steels (e.g. if a "normal" knife needs to be repaired).
Water use: Splash-and-go preferred, conventional-soaking ok. No permasoaking.
Other specifics of use: Must be resurfaceable with an Atoma 140.
Next stone in progression: JNS Matsukusuyama 300

What I'm currently looking at (these are all "gambles", as I am unfamiliar with any of them):
* Sword-polisher-style Kongoto stones in the ~150 range. (This sort of thing might be only really good for low-alloy steels, though.)
* Naniwa Carbon-Lobster 80
* Nubatama Green 180 or Platinum 150

What do you all consider recommendable for these uses?
O, and I do have the Naniwa carbon lobster 80 aswell 😅

Stay away from it. It is very small, so you wobble a lot if you are used to more common sizes.

But it feels like it is something you win at the local fair at those gabling games...
It releases abbrasives so fast, that actual holes appear if you continue. Resulting in a stone which has different gritt spots all over.

I only use it to start a really really really beat up knife, when I dont want to f#ck up my better stones. And i dont really care about my coarse stones that much... Those once in a year, top 3 worse knives ever only

Coming to think of it, I guess I should try it as a flattening stone 🤔
 

Qapla'

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That's pretty interesting actually; I wasn't aware that Suehiro made Kongô-to stones. (The ones I was looking at were the Namikawa ones, e.g. an Asahi or their own brand item. I have no idea whether Japanese natural Kongô-to stones exist.)

As far as Suehiro extra-low-grit stones go, I'm aware of their Debado LD 180 (seemingly nowhere to be found for sale) and their Debado MD 200 (seems to be available at MTCKitchen), but haven't got my hands on one so far.
 
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M1k3

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That's pretty interesting actually; I wasn't aware that Suehiro made Kongô-to stones. (The ones I was looking at were the Namikawa ones, e.g. an Asahi or their own brand item. I have no idea whether Japanese natural Kongô-to stones exist.)

As far as Suehiro extra-low-grit stones go, I'm aware of their Debado LD 180 (seemingly nowhere to be found for sale) and their Debado MD 200 (seems to be available at MTCKitchen), but haven't got my hands on one so far.
 

spaceconvoy

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its not recommended to flatten coarse stones with d plates. the grit from the stones is so coarse so it will kinda remove the diamonds on the plates.
you can of coarse do it. but you will kill your diamond plate quite quickly. better get a sacrificial SiC stone coarse. or SiC powder.
I have a very specific question that seemed better to ask here than to start a new thread. I'm planning to buy a course Crystolon to flatten the Pro 120. They should be close to the same grit, or the Shapton might be slightly finer based on what I've read. Will the tough oilstone binder plus SiC hold up to the weaker magnesium binder plus AlOx, or will I eventually need another solution to flatten the Crystolon? I'm trying to avoid dealing with SiC powder if possible
 

PappaG

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Debado md 200
Have it sitting in a box. have not used it yet.... some time in the new year...

opps, min necro
 

M1k3

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I have a very specific question that seemed better to ask here than to start a new thread. I'm planning to buy a course Crystolon to flatten the Pro 120. They should be close to the same grit, or the Shapton might be slightly finer based on what I've read. Will the tough oilstone binder plus SiC hold up to the weaker magnesium binder plus AlOx, or will I eventually need another solution to flatten the Crystolon? I'm trying to avoid dealing with SiC powder if possible
If you go that route, you'll most likely want to boil the oil (or wax?) out of the Crystolon first, if they still do that to them. You're going to eventually need to flatten the Crystolon.
 

M1k3

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I've been using 3m Cubitron 60 grit sandpaper for my Shapton Pro 120. 80 or 120 grit would work also, just a little slower.
 

HumbleHomeCook

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If you go that route, you'll most likely want to boil the oil (or wax?) out of the Crystolon first, if they still do that to them. You're going to eventually need to flatten the Crystolon.
You are correct, Crystolon and India stones are pre-soaked in oil.

I'd use sandpaper or a lapidary disc before I'd go that route.
 

spaceconvoy

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The 3M Cubitron II sandpaper is really good. Really like the polymer backing that's non-slip. Can definitely recommend.

I've also had luck using cheap Chinese made #120 and #80 grit diamond plates (about $6 per plate without backing here in Singapore) on the Shapton Pro 120. The #80 grit definitely brings back the factory surface (but I wouldn't use it on any other sharpening stone as it leaves deep gouges).
From a different thread. Maybe the 80 grit diamond plate from the evil empire is a better idea.
 

M1k3

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From a different thread. Maybe the 80 grit diamond plate from the evil empire is a better idea.
If it's for the SP 120, it'll laugh at the diamond bonding of the plate, slowly. Atoma and DMT Dia-flat would be better. The Nanohone ones should hold up also. They are expensive too.
 

spaceconvoy

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If it's for the SP 120, it'll laugh at the diamond bonding of the plate, slowly. Atoma and DMT Dia-flat would be better. The Nanohone ones should hold up also. They are expensive too.
Sad 😢 I hate the idea of a disposable solution, but I hate even more the idea of spending 5 times the cost on a maintenance tool. Maybe in this case sandpaper would be best. Though this might be a good candidate for the three-stone method
 

M1k3

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Sad 😢 I hate the idea of a disposable solution, but I hate even more the idea of spending 5 times the cost on a maintenance tool. Maybe in this case sandpaper would be best. Though this might be a good candidate for the three-stone method
I only use sandpaper for that one stone. Everything else I have isn't as hard and coarse. So a diamond plate lasts way longer. Not that I've found out the hard way or anything :dancingchicken:
 
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