Favorite non-Japanese natural stones?

[GorillaGrunt]

What do you like? I know there’s a number of them out there, lots of traditional razor hones of varying suitability for knives. And that’s about all I know other than that Coticules are said to be very good, and as expensive as a jnat in a bench size.

 

[banzai_burrito]

Khao Men, it's affordable and definitely going to last me a lifetime. Plus, Miles is great to work with and it'll come with a tomo nagura

 

[musicman980]

Coticule hands down. For a razor finisher it’s also an incredible polisher for my knives and woodworking tools, lightening fast, and seems to cut any steel out there with ease. Seeing as a $400 full size bench stone is only 7-10mm thick of actual coticule, they might be the most expensive whetstone per ounce. That’s not a surprise.

 

[riba]

I have this small coticule that is great for touch ups, just handheld



Understood it is not ideal for razors due to the red lines, but on knives it leaves a refined yet toothy edge. Really nice and pretty fast.

 

[KingShapton]

Arkansas

 

[Benuser]

Belgian Blue Brocken is a by-product of Coticule mining and contains the same abrasives, in a much lesser amount. With Coticule you can, depending on the slurry you raise, cover a huge reach of grits, from 1500 to 15k. Not so with the Brocken, which stays at about 4k. The round form of the abrasives allows a very easy deburring, as it will abrade a burr without creating a new one. I use it for deburring and reviving an edge.

 

[cotedupy]

Well this seems as though it'll be a thread that's going to be right up my alley!

(For anyone wanting to fall head-first into it here are some incredibly interesting studies.... Different Types of Natural Stones )

 

[Pertti]

I have no favorites here as Ive never even used a natural stone. Just sharing these Finnish natural phyllite stones claimed to go up to about 30k with slurry, in case someone might be interested. Again I have no experience with these, a bit too expensive that I'd actually buy one.:

https://www.whetstone.fi/category/32/mikael-waske
Here is the makers IG, we have chatted a bit, Mikael was nice and eager to help. Got a nice teaser clip too.

https://instagram.com/knifemakermikael?igshid=2p3z1xe1g1eq

 

[cotedupy]

So I have a little (possibly 'too much' ) experience of using and making stones from local slates, though not really with anything else. But it seems to me that all of the 'best' natural stones we talk about about are usually finer - finishing or honing stones... why is that? Are there very good, coarse natural stones out there?

(I found a couple of stones today that I think might work quite well when flattened. But I may not bother if it's a fool's errand...)

 

[cotedupy]

This is one... a kinda layered sandstone I think (?) It looks like it has quite a lot of fine quartz through it. But the distribution and feel of it makes me hopeful it could work for coarse sharpening. Fine stones are two a penny but good coarse naturals seem tricky to come by!

 

[musicman980]

So I have a little (possibly 'too much' ) experience of using and making stones from local slates, though not really with anything else. But it seems to me that all of the 'best' natural stones we talk about about are usually finer - finishing or honing stones... why is that? Are there very good, coarse natural stones out there?

(I found a couple of stones today that I think might work quite well when flattened. But I may not bother if it's a fool's errand...)

Maybe it’s a rarity thing? Some .1% or less of all mined Jnat rock were of razor grade. Or maybe it’s a pragmatic issue, where coarse synthetics blow coarse naturals out of the water in terms of speed and consistency.

Are the slates you gather on the finer side? That’s really interesting.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

So I have a little (possibly 'too much' ) experience of using and making stones from local slates, though not really with anything else. But it seems to me that all of the 'best' natural stones we talk about about are usually finer - finishing or honing stones... why is that? Are there very good, coarse natural stones out there?

(I found a couple of stones today that I think might work quite well when flattened. But I may not bother if it's a fool's errand...)

probably in part because doing the rest of the sharpening can be done with synthetics, and the final stone or two gives a lot to the final edge or polish.

 

[stringer]

I have

So I have a little (possibly 'too much' ) experience of using and making stones from local slates, though not really with anything else. But it seems to me that all of the 'best' natural stones we talk about about are usually finer - finishing or honing stones... why is that? Are there very good, coarse natural stones out there?

(I found a couple of stones today that I think might work quite well when flattened. But I may not bother if it's a fool's errand...)

I have a couple coarser naturals. I can put pictures up later. Here's a start off of the top of my head. I might have a few more. They are nice to have but synthetic coarse stones are much faster and easier to keep flat.

Washita
Several versions of sandstone
Pierre du levant/Turkish oil stone

 

[cotedupy]

Maybe it’s a rarity thing? Some .1% or less of all mined Jnat rock were of razor grade. Or maybe it’s a pragmatic issue, where coarse synthetics blow coarse naturals out of the water in terms of speed and consistency.

Are the slates you gather on the finer side? That’s really interesting.

Tbh I have very little experience in *comparing* these things that you should take anything I say with a fistful of salt but... I seem to be able to use a single slate as a lot of different grits depending on slurry management. They only thing they can't really do is toothy/bitey edges

And it's not easy - I certainly wouldn't use them for day-to-day sharpening. (I'm not sure what razor grade is, but I doubt they're that!)

 

[cotedupy]

I have



I have a couple coarser naturals. I can put pictures up later. Here's a start off of the top of my head. I might have a few more. They are nice to have but synthetic coarse stones are much faster and easier to keep flat.

Washita
Several versions of sandstone
Pierre du levant/Turkish oil stone

Would love to see / know more about these...

 

[stringer]

I will see what I can do. I bought a new house and in my very little free time I have been putting together my new basement workshop. Maybe I can find an hour to play with some rocks today.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Arkansas

Ditto.

Especially soft and black.

 

[stringer]

First off. I am not a polisher. I do not have the skills (patience) for it despite my sincere desire to want to learn. Most of these stones I have very little experience with using for knives. I got most of them for razor sharpening. For the most part I think that coarse work is best done with sandpaper, synthetics, and belt grinders. Coarse naturals in my experience are pretty slow. Even on relatively softer vintage razor steel, I only have a few stones I would use to try and cut a razor bevel for instance unless the razor was in pristine condition to start with. None of these stones would really work for any significant reprofiling or thinning. So with those caveats, I will begin.

Test Knife - 165mm Tosa Nakiri from Hida Tool
Iron clad mystery steel
About 59-60 HRC by my guess
The knife has not been sharpened or touched up for a month. It's in rough shape. It has quite a bit of damage to it because I used it chop some chicken carcasses up for stock. It's a little rusty because it got put into a plastic knife cover a little bit wet. Oops! The bevels were last polished with a Naniwa Superstone 2k.

I will be sharpening the wide bevels. I will spend 2 or 3 minutes scrubbing each side of the knife on each stone and then take a pic or two.

Here are the stones. None of these came with labels or anything. They are all fleabay specials. So what I call them is my best guess based the seller's claims and my own research, if you think I have misidentified any of these or know one of the mystery ones please let me know.

Left to right:
Pierre du levant/Turkish oil stone
Washita
Unknown Greenish Grey Stone
Unknown Reddish Grey Stone
Soft Arkansas
Natural Coticule/Belgian Blue Combo
Guangxi River Rock/Chinese 12K/PHIG
Butterscotch Arkansas
Owyhee Jasper

 

[stringer]

Pierre du levant / Turkish oil stone

This is the best guess of the guy I bought it from and he is someone I trust on these matters.

It looks coarser and harder than it is. It is in the picture above underneath the nakiri

I have tried it with water which felt absolutely pointless.
Mineral oil seems to be slightly better.

After several minutes of scrubbing on each side I had cleared the rust but failed to raise a burr or clear all of the damage. But the edge was improved slightly on the paper towel test.

I keep this stone because it is a rare find but I have never really found anything to use it for. Synthetics are 20 times faster at fixing damage. The polish is uneven and scratchy. It has crappy feedback and out of all my natural stones leaves the most disappointing edges on both razors and knives.

Next was the Washita. I bought this one at a pawn shop in Vegas. It took months of soaking in simple green to get all of the kerosene out of it. First I tried flattening the dished side but ended up breaking it free of its wood case and lapping the opposite side. I love this stone. True bench size. Cuts very quickly for a natural stone. I have used this to cut bevels on razors and generally don't use it on knives because I want to keep it flat and I know it wants to dish quick. I use it with oil because it cuts so fast and releases so much abrasive that it clogs very quickly with water. Oil works much better. I have shaved off of this stone, but it's a little "unrefined". 50 strokes on a nice coticule and you are there however. Knife edges are sublime however. And the polish looks pretty good. Sorry for the crappy lighting.

 

[stringer]

Next is the green-grey (I am also colorblind, so colors are sort of a best guess too) short one. This could be another washita or it could be something else. It feels like sandstone when it is dry but gets super smooth when wet. I use it with water. I have not used this one much at all. It came in a lot with a bunch of other stones and just haven't gotten around to it. I was surprised that it performed pretty similarly to the washita, maybe slightly slower. Still pretty difficult to raise a perceptible burr. At least in the two minutes per side per stone I had allotted myself. Edge feels sharp. Polish is actually pretty nice. Good contrast. Shiny core steel. If I worked on it I could probably get it pretty scratch free. I am impressed.

Next is the reddish sandstone. It was broken in transit, or it came with a matching tomo nagura depending on how you look at it. I do use the little piece like a slurry stone.

When it's wet you can really see the red

The edges off of this stone are really nice. Good contrast. The scratch pattern is pretty coarse but very uniform.

 

[stringer]

Soft Arkansas. This one usually stays in the knife drawer for quick touchups. It is really fast at edge work for a natural. Feels like about a 1k synthetic stone. I use it with water.

Here's dry

And wet

Edges are toothy but refined. Despite the speed, still hard to raise a burr the way that you do on synthetic stones. Not as good as contrast as some of the coarser stones, but still better than a corresponding synthetic. Probably polishes in the 2k range. Some unevenness and stray particles here and there.

I'm getting some lunch. Here is the Belgian Blue. One of my favorites. I will tell you about it later.

 

[childermass]

I really like the stones from Wästikivi. They are also phyllite but they are cut in a fashion to be medium grit stones around 2k not 30k like the other Finnish stones already mentioned here earlier.
I have a handheld one hanging in my kitchen for when I quickly need some extra sharpness and bite.

For finishing chisels I also enjoy my small Scottish Dalmore Blue.

 

[inferno]

great work stringer!

regarding medium/low grit nats. from what i've read over the last 15 years or so. there are no really good ones of these.
it seems most natural stones that people think are good are the mid/high grits. from maybe 3k and upwards.
and the majority seems to be in the 6-15k range.

the thing that makes synths good/fast is that the abrasive can cut pretty much all steels. and as you use them more new fresh sharp abrasive gets exposed all the time.

also i think there is a good reason most of the popular stones are jnats. there is a ton of info on them. areas/mines/stratas/appearances etc.
and if you spend a little time reading you will be able to get a pretty good idea what you're getting.

-------

i have 2 small but wide coticules and then an uchi. and while those might be "fast" in the natural stone world. i think even my shapton 12k is faster than these.

i have been looking at the belgian blues for some time now. and i think i want one as soon as i'm done with my synth high grit testing.
these are pretty much a known quality. i like that.

in the future i could see myself getting a white-ish suita. just to see what its all about. and maybe some cool karasu stone. and maybe a full size coticule.
but the coti i will probably have to hand pick. good luck for me i guess with that one.

 

[inferno]

I really like the stones from Wästikivi. They are also phyllite but they are cut in a fashion to be medium grit stones around 2k not 30k like the other Finnish stones already mentioned here earlier.
I have a handheld one hanging in my kitchen for when I quickly need some extra sharpness and bite.

For finishing chisels I also enjoy my small Scottish Dalmore Blue.

tell us more! why is the wästikivi stones coarser? they cut them in a certain way?

these are not so hard to buy here in scandinavia.

 

[Benuser]

i have 2 small but wide coticules and then an uchi. and while those might be "fast" in the natural stone world. i think even my shapton 12k is faster than these.

With Coticules a lot will depend on the slurry you raise. I use — very old school — saliva to start with and only dilute with water little by little. The thick slurry cuts really fast.
For a full sharpening, Belgian Blue is extremely slow.

 

[inferno]

here is a test i just did with my big coti. its a very hard stone. and it does not relase much slurry on its own. and even with the little slurry stone its hard to get some slurry going. i think this one tops out at maybe 8k at most.

it creates a fairly good kasumi finish, this one is full of stray scratches (that you can't see in the pic), but i know i can get it scratch free with some work.
the suehiro green g8 creates a better finish. easier, faster. and cheaper.

when sharpening it feels very hard. and you can feel when some of the garnets gets dislodged because it feels like a grain of sand under the edge. all these little pings. edges are very good.

i got a slurry stone with one of my cotis that is a much lighter yellow, almost white, and its much much creamier and softer. if i was getting a new coti it would that type.

 

[SolidSnake03]

Can attest to this method as well, I use a bit of spit or a small nagura to raise a fairly thick/heavy slurry and it cuts fast, like really fast. The slurry darkens to a gray to dark gray with metal debris in a handful of strokes

my coticule seems to be on the softer/faster side

 

[childermass]

tell us more! why is the wästikivi stones coarser? they cut them in a certain way?

these are not so hard to buy here in scandinavia.

Phyllite stones offer different finesse depending on the orientation of the crystal structure. It’s possible to get three different grades of different grit out of these rocks depending on how you cut them.

Here is a part of the third of the documents @cotedupy linked above that explains this:

This document is a great read for everyone interested in European natural stones.

 

[inferno]

very cool. maybe i need to get me one of the finnish stones.

 

[inferno]

here is my coti types. as you can see there is a big difference between these.
the big one is very hard. and so is the one with the purple spots, but the whitish clean one, yeah thats the type you want imo.