Feeler For Possible Steak Knife Batch

[MSicardCutlery]

I've been thinking about this one for a while, just want to test the waters.

I tend not to make small knives because they're still basically 70% of the work of full sized knives, but if I made a batch that could be minimalized. I've been leaning towards PM steels, specifically M4 and S90V, but could do others too, depending on the volume. I've also sort of kicked around the idea of sort of variety packs, a knife in S90V, M4, MagnaCut, and so on.

Ideally I'd want to keep the price to <200$ per, and even lower, though I'm not sure that's possible with a steel like S90V. Another consideration is handles. If I go for a more traditional style handle, the price will definitely be higher than something more like a wa handle. The time to make each is vastly different. Depending on the interest I may just bite the bullet and get them waterjet too. It would raise the price some, but profile consistency would be excellent and it would save me a bunch of the bull work.

But anyways, I can hammer out that stuff in more detail later. For now I just want to get an impression if this is something worth pursuing.

 

[HolyDiverScallop]

Hell yeah. CruWear, too, maybe?

 

[MSicardCutlery]

I could do Zwear, yeah. I like Zwear. Could do almost anything depending on stock availability. 3v, 4v, S60V, 20CV, S30v, S35/45vn, CPM-154, CPM-D2. No 10v though. It's out of stock everywhere and what I have I'm using for san-mai

 

[HolyDiverScallop]

A set of Zwear, M4, 4v, and Magnacut steak knives would be ridiculously great.

 

[MSicardCutlery]

So, no love for S90V huh? That's kinda surprising.

 

[Just a DK]

Will it be dishwasher safe?

I will see myself out…

 

[aporigine]

Will it be dishwasher safe?

I will see myself out…

Possibly.

 

[aporigine]

So, no love for S90V huh? That's kinda surprising.

Magnacut sounds just so much better in metal lyrics.

 

[Justinv]

i’m assuming these are not serrated. My experience is any steel that hits metal/ceramic is dull almost instantly. That includes hap40 cutting cake on an aluminum pan. Is PM steel useful here when cutco 440A serrated can work for years?

 

[Gshep91]

i’m assuming these are not serrated. My experience is any steel that hits metal/ceramic is dull almost instantly. That includes hap40 cutting cake on an aluminum pan. Is PM steel useful here when cutco 440A serrated can work for years?

Time to buy some soft plastic plates or some nice wood ones I guess

 

[jedy617]

So, no love for S90V huh? That's kinda surprising.

My favorite high edge retention stainless, I just don't think people are that aware of it in kitchen knife space. For you guys that don't know it is near the tippy top in edge retention, but still not like...very brittle. Definitely tougher than aogami super lol.

I wish I could drop a bunch of cash on steak knives rn, it's a good idea since most people have crappy ones

 

[blokey]

Honestly I’d be happy with AEB-L or similar since they are gonna be cutting on some tough surface

 

[MSicardCutlery]

Will it be dishwasher safe?

I will see myself out…

I assume, as long as the dishwasher doesn't run his mouth

i’m assuming these are not serrated. My experience is any steel that hits metal/ceramic is dull almost instantly. That includes hap40 cutting cake on an aluminum pan. Is PM steel useful here when cutco 440A serrated can work for years?

I mean, the limiting factor for kitchen knives is usually the board, less what they're cutting. My intention definitely wouldn't be for these to be used on ceramic in the place of everyday serrated knives. Given all of the speciality gear people have in the hobby, there must be a few people with wooden plates.

Honestly I’d be happy with AEB-L or similar since they are gonna be cutting on some tough surface

I thought about that, but I don't think toughness will be too much of a concern. There's ne reason for them to have the edge geometry of a gyuto, so they should end up fairly robust.

 

[aporigine]

I assume, as long as the dishwasher doesn't run his mouth



I mean, the limiting factor for kitchen knives is usually the board, less what they're cutting. My intention definitely wouldn't be for these to be used on ceramic in the place of everyday serrated knives. Given all of the speciality gear people have in the hobby, there must be a few people with wooden plates.


I thought about that, but I don't think toughness will be too much of a concern. There's ne reason for them to have the edge geometry of a gyuto, so they should end up fairly robust.

If it were my commission, I’d want a very thin blade. The steakies I have used put up a fight when drawn through heartier cuts. By my lights, a premium steak knife should glide through tender or tougher cuts with little force.

Someone posted a pair of famous-blacksmith steak knives not long ago. Pretty things and plainly made to highest standards, but the geometry — !
Thick spines and a blade road that looked suited to batoning through firewood. Even with a superior final sharpening, I would not feel delight when driving such a stout blade through a flank steak.

Sooo count me in the (possibly minority) contingent of those on a quest for a beef scalpel.

 

[MSicardCutlery]

Fair enough, but to better qualify what I meant. Even assuming the same BTE thickness as a gyuto, with a blade half the height, the primary bevel angle would already be double, which should double the overall toughness of the edge. And I would intend to leave the thicker bte, but not drastically. Maybe .015" vs .005"-.007" for a gyuto. And that would double or triple it again. In conjunction with a steeper sharpening angle I think they could easily have 5-7x the chip resistance of a gyuto in the same steel.

 

[aporigine]

Fair enough, but to better qualify what I meant. Even assuming the same BTE thickness as a gyuto, with a blade half the height, the primary bevel angle would already be double, which should double the overall toughness of the edge. And I would intend to leave the thicker bte, but not drastically. Maybe .015" vs .005"-.007" for a gyuto. And that would double or triple it again. In conjunction with a steeper sharpening angle I think they could easily have 5-7x the chip resistance of a gyuto in the same steel.

It seems to me like you’re designing for cuts on a hard plate.
I imagine it more likely that no one who purchases a set of bespoke steak knives in an exotic steel will subject them to a ceramic plate.

Going on to the stuff of dreams —
should a starred restaurant place a large order and commit to a unit cost that makes the project viable, it should not be hard to get its manager to be certain to provide wooden or elastomer-inlaid plates for those menus that feature the knife.

I admit I’m favoring gyuto-like specs. Near zero bevel (I would not be pleased with a bevel one might find on a Vic or Henckels in a steel that’ll take a week and a day to return to keenness on a Shapton) and a gentle convexing, possibly a walkschliff, to a submillimeter spine. However since I’m not a likely customer, please accept these musings as one opinion among many.

 

[Justinv]

I think you should collaborate with @KasumiJLA to make wood plates so you can make a spendy plate/knife set.

 

[KasumiJLA]

I can make some chopsticks too haha

 

[Jovidah]

Admittedly I'm not the target audience (personally I would fail to justify more than 50 bucks for a steak knife)... but why the obsession with fancy steels in steak knives? You're unlikely to notice the difference in performance, and it's only going to drive up cost. So personally I'd just go with something easy and cheap like AEB-L in a 'boring' HRC like 60.
I second however aporigine's request for a good geometry; it does actually make a noticable difference - and it's what's wrong with most cheap knives.

But IMO it makes sense to 'minmax these for cost to performance'; try to optimize the production process so that you can crank them out faster (=cheaper) so you can actually price them attractively.

 

[jedy617]

If you are cutting steak on a wood plate and all other things are equal, why would it be that different than any other knife on a cutting board? Not a rhetorical question btw, but why wouldn't you want longer edge retention so they last a lot longer between sharpens?

 

[Jovidah]

If you are cutting steak on a wood plate and all other things are equal, why would it be that different than any other knife on a cutting board? Not a rhetorical question btw, but why wouldn't you want longer edge retention so they last a lot longer between sharpens?

Because I'd rather have cheaper steak knives.

And even though I have wooden plates I don't actually strive for razorsharp steak knives because I'd just be worrying someone would cut their own tongue off...

 

[jedy617]

Because I'd rather have cheaper steak knives.

And even though I have wooden plates I don't actually strive for razorsharp steak knives because I'd just be worrying someone would cut their own tongue off...

Well yeah but you asked what the obsession was, I was looking for the potential reasoning

however not sure obsession is the right word, I don't know of anyone with fancy steel steak knives....at least not yet. I think a lot of us like the sound of it though.

Also wait...cutting off their tongue? Who puts knives in their mouths??

 

[MSicardCutlery]

but why the obsession with fancy steels in steak knives? You're unlikely to notice the difference in performance, and it's only going to drive up cost. So personally I'd just go with something easy and cheap like AEB-L in a 'boring' HRC like 60.

I wouldn't call it an obsession so much as a preference, but it's because with small knives like this the preponderance of the work and cost isn't actually in the steel or the grinding. Most of the work will be in the handles and the profiling and HT times won't really be changing over full sized knives.

Say (all hypothetical, guesstimates, not calculated)I can feasibly use AEB-L for a total cost of $150 per blade. I might cost only an additional $40 for MagnaCut or $55 for S90V, and when you consider that a steel like S90V will have better than double the edge retention of AEB-L with the appropriate tableware, the value of the knife goes up somewhat.

Differences in material cost tend to be the least significant variable for small producers. If I were making 10k of them, sure it might be, but at my production volume it just isn't.

Out of curiosity, do you find the boost in edge retention given by high carbide CPM steels negligible in practice?

 

[Jovidah]

Also wait...cutting off their tongue? Who puts knives in their mouths??

People who are used to all their knives being as dull as a spoon do the weirdest things.
Last time I had a group of people over to prep a christmas dinner for a sports club I had to put bandaids on 5 different people...

I wouldn't call it an obsession so much as a preference, but it's because with small knives like this the preponderance of the work and cost isn't actually in the steel or the grinding. Most of the work will be in the handles and the profiling and HT times won't really be changing over full sized knives.

Say (all hypothetical, guesstimates, not calculated)I can feasibly use AEB-L for a total cost of $150 per blade. I might cost only an additional $40 for MagnaCut or $55 for S90V, and when you consider that a steel like S90V will have better than double the edge retention of AEB-L with the appropriate tableware, the value of the knife goes up somewhat.

Differences in material cost tend to be the least significant variable for small producers. If I were making 10k of them, sure it might be, but at my production volume it just isn't.

Out of curiosity, do you find the boost in edge retention given by high carbide CPM steels negligible in practice?

I know the cost of steel is negligible in the bigger scheme, but when a steel is more work to grind and consumes more belts that's significant, no?

Personally my sample of PM steels is too limited to say anything sensible about it (only one I own is SG2); it's just that I generally don't care a whole lot about spending extra money for super steels, and 'more retention' doesn't really wet my loins when I haven't even bothered to sharpen my Opinel steak knives in years - and they're at best 12c27.

To me 'fancy steel steak knives' feels a bit like having a damascus hammer. It's just not that relevant to me... what makes a good or bad steak knife to me comes down far more to handle shape & size and the general profile of the knife, the general balance and weight. Then comes thin behind the edge (and that edge better be straight), and somewhere far down the list comes 'steel type'.
But I may be the odd man out here... My wooden plates probably cost more than my steak knives.

 

[Barmoley]

Thinking outloud here, for steak knives and other small knives high wear resistant steels make even more sense than for larger knives. For steak knives specifically how thin the overall blade is can be more important than the edge angle. Meat is not that difficult to start the cut in and thin blades go through it better, even pretty dull but thin knives can cut meat and with steak knives you are not exactly going for precision cuts. So only thick enough to be stiff should be good enough with some sort of flat grind. You don't need fancy grinds and I agree with Matt that the edge geometry can be much more robust preventing chipping. Out of the mentioned steels S90V would be the best, MagnaCut second best. I am not sure what M4 or 4V or Z-wear and the like would bring to the table, not enough difference from MagnaCut and worse corrosion resistance which is important for steak knives. To me the biggest issue here is handles, since to me western handles seem to be much preferred to WA for steak knives and that adds to cost significantly I would imagine.

 

[jedy617]

Because I'd rather have cheaper steak knives.

And even though I have wooden plates I don't actually strive for razorsharp steak knives because I'd just be worrying someone would cut their own tongue off...

Also one more thing, I think something like this group buy can be pretty fun because cheap steak knives already exist and are plentiful so why not offer something a little new?

If I can scrounge up some funds I would definitely be down to buy 1 or 2....but then the rest of my family will have to be stuck using crappy serrated stuff. Will I be looked at weird for having my own personal steak knife? Lol

 

[Jovidah]

Also one more thing, I think something like this group buy can be pretty fun because cheap steak knives already exist and are plentiful so why not offer something a little new?

If I can scrounge up some funds I would definitely be down to buy 1 or 2....but then the rest of my family will have to be stuck using crappy serrated stuff. Will I be looked at weird for having my own personal steak knife? Lol

Well that's one of the reasons I'm a fan of 'trying to keep the price low' (which isn't the same as 'cheap'); it allows the purchase of a bigger set so you can actually have a decent knife for more people than just 1.

FWIW if you just want straight edge you can get those already at fairly decent prices (for example from Opinel or K-Sabatier). IMO it's already a definite step up from the serrated crap.
I've actually known several people who would bring a folding Opinel with them because it'd usually be a significant step up from whatever steak knife you get in most restaurants.

 

[jedy617]

I usually have a nice folder on me, including when I go to steak houses like 2-3x a year, but I think I would be too embarrassed to whip out my own knife at a nice restaurant lol

 

[Jovidah]

Considering how much a good steak knife contributes to the enjoyment of a good steak I actually can't fault people at all for doing it. I'd probably do it too if I frequented restaurants more often. The bigger Opinel folders actually have quite a nice profile for usage as a steak knife.
If anything it's the restaurant's fault if they didn't provide you with a proper steak knife. Same reason I have 0 problems with bringing my own knife when cooking somewhere else.

 

[aporigine]

Thinking outloud here, for steak knives and other small knives high wear resistant steels make even more sense than for larger knives. For steak knives specifically how thin the overall blade is can be more important than the edge angle. Meat is not that difficult to start the cut in and thin blades go through it better, even pretty dull but thin knives can cut meat and with steak knives you are not exactly going for precision cuts. So only thick enough to be stiff should be good enough with some sort of flat grind. You don't need fancy grinds and I agree with Matt that the edge geometry can be much more robust preventing chipping. Out of the mentioned steels S90V would be the best, MagnaCut second best. I am not sure what M4 or 4V or Z-wear and the like would bring to the table, not enough difference from MagnaCut and worse corrosion resistance which is important for steak knives. To me the biggest issue here is handles, since to me western handles seem to be much preferred to WA for steak knives and that adds to cost significantly I would imagine.

Regarding handles, the preference for western full-tang handles is (imo) “because that’s how it’s always been.” A wa handle on a steakie is something I’d love to see. I’d opt for octagonal monowood in something pretty but not barock, like monowood figured maple or Masur birch. Koa perhaps.

Having used a lasery petty as a steak knife, and enjoying the greatly superior cutting action vs. a typical nonserrated steakie, I think a very thin blade in a long-wearing steel like S90V, with a 15°/side microbevel and a high-grit belt finish would be a lovely thing.

Steak knives are unusual in that it is one of the few times people who are not into food prep handle knives that need to cut. I think that, especially for festive dining occasions, presenting them with the use of a premier cru knife alongside the ‘89 Margaux dots the i of the experience. So I opine that there is a place for steak knives made to the kind of standards we are discussing here — and my preference leans toward the severely classical. No damascus, odd profiles, heavily ornamented handles … you get my drift.