Feeling for the angle

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AGC8

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For those experienced sharpening their knives using whetstones...

How did you learn to "find the angle"? YouTubers like Ryky from Burrfection recommends "feeling for it" (start sliding the blade w/ spine close to stone, feel the slippage, then lift spin up still that's gone, lifting the knife spin up just a hair..yet not so much it digs in).

I'm thinking (as someone that's never touched a whetstone)...is this actually possible? To feel for a bevel that's maybe 1-2mm on the cutting edge..one side. Is this something you either get immediately or never? So guys end up using devices like the Wicked Edge, Edge Sharp...Tomek grinding wheels...

The 2 coin trick supposedly doesn't always work on all knives as some are thicker than others. With stippling or just happen to have a thicker profile..
 
I'm very interested to see the answers here.

Angles were always the worst enemies when starting the sharpening journey. You always feel that you can't get a sharp edge because you can't find the right angle. And you start to focus so much on this that it takes a while to understand there's no spoon.
 
I start with the right face at the lowest possible angle and only little by little increase it until I've reached the very edge and raised a burr. That's the moment to start with the other side and do the same.
So I reproduce a previous configuration if there's no need to change it. It now has moved to a slightly thicker part of the blade. That's the reason for the thinning to start with.
Use a marker and a loupe to see where steel got abraded and whether the very edge got reached.
 
Sharpie is your friend. Nothing screams the wrong or right angle more than an edge marked with a sharpie or a gouged stone.
 
Advice similar to Ryky's is based upon the supposition that you want to replicate and preserve the factory geometry. For many of us, factory edges bear little resemblance to our preference.

That approach becomes particularly challenging when you thin your knife to an acceptable level.

In terms of setting your desired angle, a little trig (sine of your desired angle multiplied by blade height) will get you an idea of where to hold the spine. Hitting exact angles isn't really critical, but that'll get you in the range you want. I just eyeball the height, often tucking my fingertipb under. It's the same basic concept as the coin method, except without the coins, and I'm looking at the center of the spine. Then, muscle memory will help maintain that angle. Of course you can look for light or use the sharpie - either way there's some visual aspect.

But as had been mentioned already, "conventional" bevel geometry isn't for everyone. I think @stringer uses a similar method to @Benuser, making essentially a scandi with a microbevel. Essentially, you have to try a few things to see what you like, and also develop the ability to approximately replicate your results.
 
If you want to be sure about an angle, cut a few wine corks under the inclination that corresponds to some standard angles: 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20, 35°. Just fo reference. I found it quite helpful when I started.
Most factory edges don't mean much. It's an edge, generally unpredictable and mostly weak. Eases putting your own one on it. Have seen factory edges that weren't meant to be actually used: a symmetric 6° per side edge on a Honesuki, for example. It's only purpose was to make the sharpening much faster: within a few strokes there was an edge that was more suited to both the use and the steel. On other blades I've seen extremely conservative edges. Probably to make sure no chipping would occur.
When you have no reference at all: a good starting point with an asymmetric Japanese blade would be a convex right bevel, ending at 10-12°, and a tiny straight left bevel of 15-20° to compensate for steering, all depending on your own needs.
With a new or unknown blade the marker trick is very useful to recognise a microbevel. The ink will help you in staying as long as needed with the coarsest stone, without accumulating debris on top of the future edge. Most problems occur when people switch too early to the next stone.
 
Nikabrik said:
Advice similar to Ryky's is based upon the supposition that you want to replicate and preserve the factory geometry. For many of us, factory edges bear little resemblance to our preference.

That approach becomes particularly challenging when you thin your knife to an acceptable level.

In terms of setting your desired angle, a little trig (sine of your desired angle multiplied by blade height) will get you an idea of where to hold the spine. Hitting exact angles isn't really critical, but that'll get you in the range you want. I just eyeball the height, often tucking my fingertipb under. It's the same basic concept as the coin method, except without the coins, and I'm looking at the center of the spine. Then, muscle memory will help maintain that angle. Of course you can look for light or use the sharpie - either way there's some visual aspect.

But as had been mentioned already, "conventional" bevel geometry isn't for everyone. I think @stringer uses a similar method to @Benuser, making essentially a scandi with a microbevel. Essentially, you have to try a few things to see what you like, and also develop the ability to approximately replicate your results.
Click to expand...

Benuser’s creating convexity near the edge, if I understand correctly, not making a wide bevel with microbevel like stringer does.

edit: what’s the difference, you may ask? stringer’s nonmicrobevel is usually very wide, while Benuser is suggesting an approach that I think only modifies the knife near the edge, creating more of a continuous (or at least multiply faceted) convex.
 
ian said:
Benuser’s creating convexity near the edge, if I understand correctly, not making a wide bevel with microbevel like stringer does.

edit: what’s the difference, you may ask? stringer’s nonmicrobevel is usually very wide, while Benuser is suggesting an approach that I think only modifies the knife near the edge, creating more of a continuous (or at least multiply faceted) convex.
Click to expand...
I want the right bevel to be the continuity of the convex face, forming one arc.
 
Lots of good info here. It’s possible to feel a bevel, if it’s wide enough. I think I could feel a 2mm bevel, at least. Probably it would feel like more resistance as you’re running the knife up and down the stone, because there’ll be a bigger area of contact, vs just the edge (angle too high) or just the shoulder of the bevel (angle too low). However, forget all this. Basically, the point of hitting an existing bevel perfectly is to avoid taking off too much steel during a sharpening session. If you have a jig or something, you could set it to the exact same angle every time and perform your sharpening with minimal metal loss. On the other hand, if your angle is too high, you’ll end up creating a new bevel starting at the edge, and you’ll quickly lose metal at the edge as you do this. If your angle is too low, you’ll initially be just grinding on the shoulder of the existing bevel, and you’ll have to keep removing metal until the entire preexisting bevel has been transformed to one with the new lower angle, at which point you’ll start to contact the actual edge. All these situations sound dire, but with a really small bevel neither one is such a big deal.

If you really want to do so, try to feel the existing bevel, or use a Sharpie on the edge, do a few swipes at a given angle and see if the edge or the shoulder of the bevel is scraped to see if your angle is too high or low.

But a better idea for your mental health is to just get a feel for what a reasonable sharpening angle is that you want to aim for (using the tips Benuser suggested, for instance) and then just ignore the existing bevel when you sharpen. As you develop muscle (and brain) memory, you’ll start to use basically the same angle whenever you sharpen even without an angle guide, and then subsequent sharpenings won’t remove so much metal, since the angles will be approximately the same as before.

As kayman says, there is no spoon. Sage words.
 
Some great info in this thread.

I would add that many stones will provide feedback (tactile and/or auditory) about whether you are sharpening at the edge or behind it. This may be more pronounced with some steels. For me, simple steels typically give better feedback.
 
I believe @stringer starts as low as possible, if not flat on the stone and continuously raises the angle until he hits the final angle. Creating a convex/hamaguri edge.
 
M1k3 said:
I believe @stringer starts as low as possible, if not flat on the stone and continuously raises the angle until he hits the final angle. Creating a convex/hamaguri edge.
Click to expand...

WWSD, oh, oh, WWSD.

Your status as an influencer is cemented in this thread, @stringer.

Seriously, though, what do you do? :)
 
I start with the tip of the knife flat on the stone. Heavy finger pressure in the center of the blade. As I work my way down the knife the spine gradually comes up off of the stone. And simultaneously my finger pressure moves closer to the edge and diminishes in strength. I'm still trying to raise an even burr along the entire edge, I just want the angle of attack to shift from the very pointy tip to the more durable heel. So at the tip I have a zero bevel and at the heel I have about a 40 degree inclusive bevel. This is the way I sharpen my own knives. When I'm teaching someone else to sharpen or I'm sharpening someone else's knives then I do it more traditional. I think this is the best way to maintain good geometry if you are in a position where your knives are being used and sharpened a lot. It avoids the hassle of having to thin as the blade shrinks. If I get chipping/rolling/steering then I add a micro bevel as appropriate to counteract whatever behavior I don't like.

IMG_20200111_171453.jpg
IMG_20200111_173220.jpg
 
Benuser said:
I start with the right face at the lowest possible angle and only little by little increase it until I've reached the very edge and raised a burr. That's the moment to start with the other side and do the same.
So I reproduce a previous configuration if there's no need to change it. It now has moved to a slightly thicker part of the blade. That's the reason for the thinning to start with.
Use a marker and a loupe to see where steel got abraded and whether the very edge got reached.
Click to expand...
That's what this Ryky guy from Burrfection reconnected my recommended. Adding the market tip...

Someone commented that steel can tell us what's going on just as some stones. I thought it was only the stone. How do?

Should I start with a stone that does "talk"? Like a Chosera 800 or 1000? A quality stone instead of a cheep combo some that doesn't "talk"...

Thanks guys for the tips so far...I do think some people get too hung up on keeping the factory angle...
 
AGC8 said:
That's what this Ryky guy from Burrfection reconnected my recommended. Adding the market tip...

Someone commented that steel can tell us what's going on just as some stones. I thought it was only the stone. How do?

Should I start with a stone that does "talk"? Like a Chosera 800 or 1000? A quality stone instead of a cheep combo some that doesn't "talk"...

Thanks guys for the tips so far...I do think some people get too hung up on keeping the factory angle...
Click to expand...

Sharpening takes at least four of your senses. Probably many more. Different stones have different feedbacks. Audio, visual, texture, soft/hard, slow/fast, glassy/buttery, smell, absorbent/impermeable, wet/dry. Any stone can work, some just work better than others. Some require more/less setup and maintenance. I don't know about talking stones. But definitely pay attention to all your senses. I check the knife constantly to see if I'm raising a burr. I'm watching the slurry to see how fast or slow the metal is coming off. I'm feeling with my fingertips how close I am to the edge. As I get closer to the edge I use less pressure. Ryky should be taken with a grain of salt. Watch videos by Peter Nowlan and Jon Broida. You can start with any decent stone to learn the basics. Something in the 800-2k range from one of the big brands is great. Learn how to get the knife to cut paper towel and shave arm hair on that one stone. Maybe get something else to flatten it. And just start practicing.
 
stringer said:
Sharpening takes at least four of your senses. Probably many more. Different stones have different feedbacks. Audio, visual, texture, soft/hard, slow/fast, glassy/buttery, smell, absorbent/impermeable, wet/dry. Any stone can work, some just work better than others. Some require more/less setup and maintenance. I don't know about talking stones. But definitely pay attention to all your senses. I check the knife constantly to see if I'm raising a burr. I'm watching the slurry to see how fast or slow the metal is coming off. I'm feeling with my fingertips how close I am to the edge. As I get closer to the edge I use less pressure. Ryky should be taken with a grain of salt. Watch videos by Peter Nowlan and Jon Broida. You can start with any decent stone to learn the basics. Something in the 800-2k range from one of the big brands is great. Learn how to get the knife to cut paper towel and shave arm hair on that one stone. Maybe get something else to flatten it. And just start practicing.
Click to expand...

I'll look for videos on those 2 guys.

But what's the deal with Ryky? Something I should know??

And I was referring to shines that have done degree of feedback ...I couldn't think of the right word heh.. I just wondered if it wouldn't be a better idea to spend the extra$ and get maybe a Naniwa Chivers 800 and 1000... Or Suehiro Cersx.. And avoid the Combi no BV feedback stones...
 
AGC8 said:
I'll look for videos on those 2 guys.

But what's the deal with Ryky? Something I should know??

And I was referring to shines that have done degree of feedback ...I couldn't think of the right word heh.. I just wondered if it wouldn't be a better idea to spend the extra$ and get maybe a Naniwa Chivers 800 and 1000... Or Suehiro Cersx.. And avoid the Combi no BV feedback stones...
Click to expand...

Paid product placement, talks a lot, not an experienced sharpener (he's got some now, but not like Jon or Peter Nowlan).
 
M1k3 said:
Paid product placement, talks a lot, not an experienced sharpener (he's got some now, but not like Jon or Peter Nowlan).
Click to expand...
Ok. Well be was working for Cutlery and More. I guess he still is. Might not necessarily him busted towards a certain brand. Monty that I'm a fan of his. Just thought what he said sense about "feeling for the angle".

I figured the factory angle would change over time be a degree or two over time. EyWe' not robots.

Thanks for the advice. Probably stay with an 800 and 1000 get Suehiro Cersx stones. Something with feedback. Learning on knives I don't care about. Have 3 generic supermarket knives. Chef knives.
 
AGC8 said:
Learning on knives I don't care about.
Click to expand...

Good advice, to a point. Just be aware that generic supermarket knives will be really unpleasant to sharpen, compared to better quality knives, especially carbon steel. You won't get as much feedback with them either.
 
ian said:
Good advice, to a point. Just be aware that generic supermarket knives will be really unpleasant to sharpen, compared to better quality knives, especially carbon steel. You won't get as much feedback with them either.
Click to expand...
Better to at least start with a Kumo or Mercer? Recommendations on a good cheap knife I can use and learn to sharpen with? Victorinox Fibroux...

Jon Broda... Of Japanese Knife Imports?
 
AGC8 said:
Better to at least start with a Kumo or Mercer? Recommendations on a good cheap knife I can use and learn to sharpen with? Victorinox Fibroux...

Jon Broda... Of Japanese Knife Imports?
Click to expand...

I think the best thing to learn on would be cheap carbon steel. Like

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Fo...136222?hash=item3d997d621e:g:fTUAAOSwLfxd9pWQ

or something. Some people think Vics are ok to sharpen. I've only sharpened one, and I hated it.

Yes, Jon is Jon Broida of JKI. He has a youtube channel.
 
ian said:
I think the best thing to learn on would be cheap carbon steel. Like

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Fo...136222?hash=item3d997d621e:g:fTUAAOSwLfxd9pWQ

or something. Some people think Vics are ok to sharpen. I've only sharpened one, and I hated it.

Yes, Jon is Jon Broida of JKI. He has a youtube channel.
Click to expand...

I think the Mercer German blades are carbon steel... Mesermeister... Read to find at Amazon. Ca

Jon has a shop in California right? I knew I recognized his name. Has a Japanese wife..
 
AGC8 said:
Better to at least start with a Kumo or Mercer? Recommendations on a good cheap knife I can use and learn to sharpen with? Victorinox Fibroux...

Jon Broda... Of Japanese Knife Imports?
Click to expand...

I have a question. How much do you think you could improve your cutting skills?
 
Nemo said:
Some great info in this thread.

I would add that many stones will provide feedback (tactile and/or auditory) about whether you are sharpening at the edge or behind it. This may be more pronounced with some steels. For me, simple steels typically give better feedback.
Click to expand...
This. When I first started, I used to sharpen at such a small angle that I wondered why my knife is still not sharp after 2 hours... Then I heard somewhere about hearing the correct angle. You can actually hear a different scrapping sounds when it's sliding in the stone and when it gets to the angle of grinding on the stone. Give it a try.
 
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