Goorackerelite
Well-Known Member
I hear advice all the time on finishing on a 1K stone and then deburr for kitchen use. Is there any merit to this? I use a White #2 blade.
finishing at 1k?
- Thread starter Goorackerelite
- Start date
Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2014
- Messages
- 826
- Reaction score
- 590
There's plenty of merit to this. Your mileage may vary, but a 1k edge is more than serviceable. Polishing beyond that point is not uncommon (2-5k), but going beyond 5k is usually done on knives that will be used for raw fish preparations.
That is not to say people here and in kitchens not doing raw fish can't and won't polish their edges way past 1k. Find the edge that works best for you and your needs.
That is not to say people here and in kitchens not doing raw fish can't and won't polish their edges way past 1k. Find the edge that works best for you and your needs.
I sharpen many knives for friends and relatives. Mostly these are generic Wustoff’s at best. Generally I will sharpen them from 400grit to a 800 or 1000 grit Chosera at a 20 degree plus angle. That’s it. The edges are satisfactorily sharp and have a nice edge that lasts a long time. My own knives and quality knives that come to me get a much different treatment at less than a 20 degree angle usually ending the progression at 5000 grit. I like to look at a polished edge but in truth anything beyond 3000 grit is, IMO, for appearances only in a kitchen knife. 1000 grit gives a fine working edge that’s easy to achieve and maintain.
More of a slicer? Lots of butchery? You may like a 1K edge best.
More of a push cutter - push the grits, but if you go too high you'll eventually loose that initial feeling of readily biting into any kind of peel, skin or whatever.
Of course, within those parameters, personal tastes, sharpening techniques, may provide you with a different experience.
More of a push cutter - push the grits, but if you go too high you'll eventually loose that initial feeling of readily biting into any kind of peel, skin or whatever.
Of course, within those parameters, personal tastes, sharpening techniques, may provide you with a different experience.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2013
- Messages
- 435
- Reaction score
- 57
I really like my home inexpensive kitchen and outdoor knives finished at 1k or 2k and stropped a little. Going to 4k or 6k seems to remove that really slicing toothiness. (both carbon and stainless)
Goorackerelite
Well-Known Member
Mm yes I will totally try that!! In a sliicer and am craving more authority in the pull cut area. Thanks for this insight
Then another one is scratch pattern - if a push and slice, perpendicular (to the edge) may work best, but if going into pure slicing perhaps you want an oblique pattern that follows your pull best. It’s tiny improvements but at the microscopic level your edge is a series of scratches on both sides where metal was abraded until the two sides apexed - and at the 1K level that apex is still rather toothy too. With the scratch pattern you are sort of « directing » the apex - where all those scratches lead into teeth that gained their thinnest, sharpest point according to a direction that suits you.
If something it will also bring focus to your sharpening, around which you can refine a technique, and play with different stones, grits, pressure, mud, what have you, until you get to the best progression you can to hone that edge to your needs.
I’m using someone else’s wisdom here, but will take all the blame and ridicule of those who’ll just say it doesn’t matter at all. Helping my edge or not, it helped me a lot for sure.
If something it will also bring focus to your sharpening, around which you can refine a technique, and play with different stones, grits, pressure, mud, what have you, until you get to the best progression you can to hone that edge to your needs.
I’m using someone else’s wisdom here, but will take all the blame and ridicule of those who’ll just say it doesn’t matter at all. Helping my edge or not, it helped me a lot for sure.
spaceconvoy
Senior Member
on some steels I prefer an even lower grit - with cheap stainless (CCK cleaver) I'll start/finish on just a 500 glass stone
While I think this is pretty mush a BS, but it does not matter really. If this belief is helping you and its producing better result for you - awesome.
I like a little bit of fairy dust for my mid grit stones, makes me wobble less.
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2020
- Messages
- 874
- Reaction score
- 1,032
I'll stop at 1-2K for my Honesuki. I typically take carbon up to around 6-8K
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 9,791
- Reaction score
- 4,506
With a White#2, hard to see why you wouldn't try to get the best out of it. It's finely grained, no big carbides, so go for a highly polished edge, I'd say. Better enhance the steel's properties than fighting against them. By the way, a coarse finish won't hold very long on those steels. A highly polished one will, and can easily be restored.
If you're looking for a more aggressive edge, better do it with a coarsely grained steel.
If you're looking for a more aggressive edge, better do it with a coarsely grained steel.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2013
- Messages
- 435
- Reaction score
- 57
Regarding, "...By the way, a coarse finish won't hold very long on those steels. A highly polished one will, and can easily be restored..."
In your opinion, how much / what effect does the hardness of White#2 have on the choice of finishing polished vs 1k/2k finish?
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 9,791
- Reaction score
- 4,506
The hardness allows a very thin edge, at a very acute angle if you prefer. But the steel is far from abrasion resistant. See a coarse edge (I have no 2k in mind) as a fine saw. The only contact with the board will be made with its dents, where all forces are concentrated on. Don't expect them to hold very long. That's why I suggested a so-called closed edge with a larger contact area, and forces spread along the entire edge.
By the way, a Naniwa Chosera 3k delivers a 4k kind of edge, perfectly suited as a last stone on double-bevelled blades used in Western cuisine — with a lot of board contact.
Last edited:
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
if 1k is all you have, go for it. but as others have said it doesn't make any sense one carbon steels. hard ss, high carbide steels and tool steels and such its more suitable for that. but even then. 1k?? i put at least 3-4k edges on everything i own. its a night and day difference compared to 1k i think.
Goorackerelite
Well-Known Member
yes thank you for this opinion. that's what I was aiming for and normally do. But I'll try different finishing grits then deburr as a learning experience and report back my personal findings.
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
Goorackerelite
go as far as you can on every grit you have, and do them as good as you can, start from the bottom. only then will you know what you want/need.
personally i feel i start liking the sharpness at about 3k and 2k is acceptable.
i find every jump in grit is an improvement. but abouve lets say 4k there isn't really any bit improvements to had.
go as far as you can on every grit you have, and do them as good as you can, start from the bottom. only then will you know what you want/need.
personally i feel i start liking the sharpness at about 3k and 2k is acceptable.
i find every jump in grit is an improvement. but abouve lets say 4k there isn't really any bit improvements to had.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2013
- Messages
- 435
- Reaction score
- 57
I'm going to have to get a nice 3k to try.
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 9,791
- Reaction score
- 4,506
Another aspect you may consider: how are you going to maintain a carbon 1k edge? If a 1k is all you have a lot of steel will shortly get abraded. The life span of a white steel treated in such a way will be unnecessary reduced. Remember: the white steel is very hard, but has little abrasion resistance.
When maintaining my carbons I rarely have to go back to 1k or lower and perform a full sharpening. I normally use a small piece of Belgian Blue Brocken, or Hard Arkansas. A few edge leading strokes as if you were deburring is all you to need to revive an edge — almost at the level of fresh from the stones. If it doesn't go within a few strokes you go lower, say 2-3k.
When maintaining my carbons I rarely have to go back to 1k or lower and perform a full sharpening. I normally use a small piece of Belgian Blue Brocken, or Hard Arkansas. A few edge leading strokes as if you were deburring is all you to need to revive an edge — almost at the level of fresh from the stones. If it doesn't go within a few strokes you go lower, say 2-3k.
Carl Kotte
Senior Member
I guess I’m in camp coarse. Not because I can or would dispute everything wise that’s been said above, but simply because a 1k edge (approximately) gives me (given how I sharpen and cut) the most joy in use. I like the feedback which that kind of edge gives when cutting through produce. Also, such edges are more predictable for me: I can keep a constant good pace and let knife fall through produce. (I got used to the edges that a Mac ceramic rod gives a long time ago: I guess it set a standard, good or bad). I often do touch ups on an aiiwatani tomae which gives a much finer finish but it works well for my preferences. If I’m in a hurry the old Mac rod comes to the rescue.
Last edited:
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
a nice 3k is the naniwa pro 2k, it basically cuts like a 2k then the slurry breaks down and it creates a 3k edge. and its cheaper than the naniwa pro 3k.
the glass 3 or 4k is also nice. i think the 3k is the better stone since its faster and does not clog easily, but yeah they 4k edge will be sharper, but its slower and clogs on some steels.
i also like the cleancut 4k kitayama (this is most likely a bester/imanishi 4k). its a bit softer feeling, and a bit lighter, its a bit creamier, s&g and dries fast.
i think its a bit slower than the glass 3 and 4k. but its not really important at this grit range imo.
i think all these stones are really nice.
BillHanna
Gotta get ready for ARM
How close do you think the Shapton Pro 1.5K is to that Naniwa?
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
is this the regular white rod? (do they have black ones too?)
would you say it puts on a 1k-ish edge?
does the rod clog up much?
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
not very. unfortuanately. probably twice as coarse.
i dont actually have the 1,5k shapton pro. but i have the 1k and 2k, 2 of my most used stones, (and best stones).
the 1k is a bit coarser than regular 1k's maybe 800 or so. the 2k is a true 2k imo.
i guess the 1,5k will be a true 1,5k or at the very most slightly below the 2k in grit.
i feel there is a big difference between my shappro2k/glass 2k and the glass 3k. at the 3k level i feel now its actually sharp, the 2k while your know quite sharp, it just doesn't cross that "really sharp" barrier. i feel about the same difference comparing the 4k glass with the 3k. its a big step up. maybe not as big as the 2-3k one but still. i feel at the 4k glass things start to get scary sharp.
------------
so the shapton pro 1,5k vs naniwa 2k pro. i think the naniwa 2k pro will create a much sharper edge. comparable to the glass 3k. almost identical.
i had the naniwa pro 1k for a few years as my baseline stone and that stone creates about a 1,5k edge. and its a bit slower than other 1k stones, and quite messy. for me its was too unrefined to stop on. so i guess the shappro 1,5k would be that too.
the real naniwa 1k pro is the 800. and its a very good 1k!
---------------
basically the naniwa pros finish higher than their stated grit. 800 is 1k - 1k is 1,5k - 2k is 3k, 3k is 4k etc.
the shapton pro 1k is known to be lower, but i feel the 2k is about on par. that makes these 2 stones a quite good C/F combo in reality for cheap/soft SS and such.
when i had my 1k naniwa pro i did a shootout with the 2k shapton. and the shapton is only a little bit slower, but the edge is much much better.
so i gave the nani to my brother.
BillHanna
Gotta get ready for ARM
That's actually awesome. So I'm kinda getting a 3K at 2K price. I'm trying to decide if I want to jump to 5K, just to cook at home.
I think the thing about the teeth of the edge being in the direction of the scratch pattern is probably BS. From what I understand (which may be wrong), the teeth are created when little bits of steel break off the edge. They aren’t little grooves created by abrasive particles. Think mountain range, not city of skyscrapers. And if you go look at some super zoomed in images of edges, there’s never an “orientation” of the teeth that matches the scratch pattern. At least I’ve never seen one.
If anything, maybe the orientation of the scratch pattern on the face of the knife might have some effect on how the knife goes through food. But I’m not convinced yet there’s a huge difference. Seems wiser to sharpen in whatever direction you can do most consistently, absent any other real evidence.
Last edited:
Do you guys use a leather strop after 1k? I sharpened cheap Jknife with 54-56 HRC with Chosera 800, but I felt little resistance while I was slicing tomato. Then I jumped on Chosera 3k but this time it didn't bite, it slipped. Lastly I tried to jump to a fine leather strop (with Herald's green compound on it) after Chosera 800, this time I felt way better, smoother cuts. I wonder it makes sense or it's delusion.
