Finishing with edge leading

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metamorpheus

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Anyone else like to finish and touch up using edge leading strokes? I used to use edge trailing strokes, but have found that I'm much more likely to get a wire edge or a keen but fragile edge. Edge leading strokes seem to lend a little more bite to the edge, make it more durable, and are easier to get a burr free finish for me.
I use exclusively slurried jnat finishers as my final stone, so visual feedback from the slurry wave riding in front of the edge has also been helpful with getting better angle consistency.

The science of sharp article on edge leading vs edge trailing also seems to be consistent with what I've observed.

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/the-pasted-strop-part-1/
 
I mainly use 2 gyutos. A kurosaki R2 and a kurosaki AS that has been thinned to an extreme. Edge trailing, even on a fine Jnat, will raise a burr easily, so I prefer to treat that like a razor edge.
 
I always do some edge leading strokes at the end of my sharpening, but I typically combine it with edge trailing.
 
I always do some edge leading strokes after every stone in my sharpening progression. It really gives more bite to the edge.
 
I noticed in Salty's old vids that he has a fair amount of edge leading.

I've used a nagura slurry on a nice hard, flat, black Arkansas, edge leading, to finish knives that seemed difficult to get a good edge on, and that helped me. Those were a couple harder PM steels, FWIW.

I've also heard knife sellers swear that it's unnecessary to use edge leading (if you're doing everything else right). So maybe it's a crutch for beginner sharpeners (notably myself)?
 
I've started doing edge leading strokes at the very very end of progression, both for my soft CroMoVa beaters and for my nicer japanese steel blades. Don't know yet if that improves the edge for me personally. On an edge leading progression I can get hair shaving sharpness, but haven't managed to achieve that yet on edge leading finishes, although it does cut very well when it comes to product. (tomato test, normal usage etc)
 
I cannot do edge leading strokes - my technique is too poor. I had better start practicing though judging from this thread.
 
Carl Kotte said:
I cannot do edge leading strokes - my technique is too poor. I had better start practicing though judging from this thread.
Click to expand...





For the bulk of your sharpening it doesn't matter one way or the other. Do whatever makes you comfortable that you're doing a steady job maintaining your angle and pressure.
But according to the Science of Sharp guys scanning electron microscope observations and a bunch of sharpeners anecdotes it's best to finish the very apex with some edge leading strokes. I think he also says that edge trailing becomes equally good or better after a certain grit like 8000 or something. But that could have been the Australian guy who shills the sharpness testers.
Anyways, as you are sharpening you are raising a burr and then chasing it away. Ideally, you start with coarse stones and higher pressure and then you move to finer stones and less pressure in order to create a nice crispy edge. Performance is going to be inordinately controlled by the last 20 strokes that you take, maybe even 10 or 5.
I like to alternate between doing edge trailing strokes with a loaded felt or denim strop and edge leading strokes with whatever my finishing stone is for that knife. I do this a few times until am confident there is neither a burr nor a foil edge.
If you are just using edge trailing you risk creating a foil edge. That's a particular type of wire edge where the wire is aligned with the knife edge. This is actually good for some applications like cabinet scrapers or really soft knives. You can maintain it through endless relentless every couple of minutes honing on a steel. Think meat processing plants and old school butchers.
With a Japanese knife that foil edge will feel wonderful on paper. You can shave your face with it. But it breaks off as soon as it hits the cutting board and your knife is immediately dull. Unlike with softer knives, it hasn't just deflected and you can realign it, but it's now a faint dark grey line staining whatever you just cut.
On the other hand, edge leading creates a burr with every swipe. But if you are alternating directions it doesn't have a chance to grow. And if you're using continuously diminishing pressure and finer and finer stones, then it will become imperceptibly small. A couple of higher angle feather passes at the very end and maybe strop a second on newspaper or your pants leg and you're good. Sharp and durable. No burr.
 
This reminds me: recently I’ve starting putting pressure on both edge leading and trailing strokes when raising a burr. I feel like most instructional vids tell you to only put pressure on one of them, usually trailing. Why? It’s easier to maintain a constant angle if you’re not changing pressure every other second.

Apologies for being slightly off topic.
 
stringer said:
On the other hand, edge leading creates a burr with every swipe. But if you are alternating directions it doesn't have a chance to grow. And if you're using continuously diminishing pressure and finer and finer stones, then it will become imperceptibly small. A couple of higher angle feather passes at the very end and maybe strop a second on newspaper or your pants leg and you're good. Sharp and durable. No burr.
Click to expand...
What's your experience with burr raising on edge-leading strokes? My experience has been a bit different, but I would like to know more, and what to watch for.
 
Every set of instructions I have seen that came with Arkansas stones said alternating edge leading strokes. With novaculite and other hard oil stones they are not raising a slurry so I maybe a finer edge is possible in relation to stone coarseness and there is little danger of gouging them hard stones with edge leading strokes even under pretty heavy pressure.
I have done little more than play with some friends water stones. They seem to be just the opposite of the oil stones like the Arks. Pressure and emphasis being on edge trailing strokes with them softer water stones. And everyone focusing on creating burs. At least that is my take on it and hence my reluctance to switch over to the faster cutting water stones.
 
captaincaed said:
What's your experience with burr raising on edge-leading strokes? My experience has been a bit different, but I would like to know more, and what to watch for.
Click to expand...

I did a video because I'm a dork. TL;DW below





TL;DW
I am of the belief that proper removal of the burr is essential to proper functioning of the knife.
If you are using a knife that is 59+, you are careful with pressure management and you are taking steps along the way to reduce burr formation, and you are finishing on naturals or synthetics at 4k or above, it probably doesn't matter.

If you are finishing at 3k or below I would be wary of finishing with edge trailing.

If you are sharpening soft steel I would always finish with edge leading.

This is my experience as a cook not a metallurgist or professional sharpener.
 
ian said:
This reminds me: recently I’ve starting putting pressure on both edge leading and trailing strokes when raising a burr. I feel like most instructional vids tell you to only put pressure on one of them, usually trailing. Why? It’s easier to maintain a constant angle if you’re not changing pressure every other second.

Apologies for being slightly off topic.
Click to expand...

When doing back and forth scrubbing motions, I try and keep what feels like even pressure backward and forward to minimize wobble. I suspect in reality I'm putting more pressure on the edge trailing direction since I always hold the knife with the sharp edge coming towards my belly. This means that in the edge leading direction my fingers can't push down as much because I'm pulling the knife towards my body. In the edge trailing direction I'm pushing the knife away from me so I imagine it increases the downward forces on the edge trailing stroke. If you held the knife the other way with the spine facing you during this process then it would be biased in the other direction. Whether you're flipping or switching hands plays a big role here too. In the end, I think how you finish is most important. The rest is just about being consistent on angle, minimizing burrs as you go along, and paying attention with all your senses.
 
Yea, that jives with my experience. +1

Btw, just started finishing soft stainless edge leading in response to the earlier posts, and I (think I) feel a big difference! Nice.
 
Several years ago I, just for the fun of it, I used edge leading strokes when finishing on every stone because everyone was advocating edge trailing. I like to buck the system. I noticed easier and better burr removal and a better overall edge the very first time I tried it. It works for me so that's what I do. I think it has a lot to do with overall technique and can see where others may like to do things different. With sharpening there are so many roads to the same place.
 
I think it’s also easier to not pay attention to your angles when finishing with edge trailing strokes. Edge leading makes me alert.

Although probably that’s just because it’s new to me...

New method: change your method every time to keep your mind alert. I see no drawbacks.
 
stringer said:
When doing back and forth scrubbing motions, I try and keep what feels like even pressure backward and forward to minimize wobble. I suspect in reality I'm putting more pressure on the edge trailing direction since I always hold the knife with the sharp edge coming towards my belly. This means that in the edge leading direction my fingers can't push down as much because I'm pulling the knife towards my body. In the edge trailing direction I'm pushing the knife away from me so I imagine it increases the downward forces on the edge trailing stroke. If you held the knife the other way with the spine facing you during this process then it would be biased in the other direction. Whether you're flipping or switching hands plays a big role here too. In the end, I think how you finish is most important. The rest is just about being consistent on angle, minimizing burrs as you go along, and paying attention with all your senses.
Click to expand...
I can see style playing a role with preference. I switch hands and always have the spine facing me when sharpening. When thinning and polishing I also switch hands, but prefer the spine facing away from me.

I can more comfortable drop pressure very low and keep the angle by stabilizing the spine with both thumbs and doing short leading strokes in sections to finish.
If I'm dropping back to an 800 I do scrubbing, stropping strokes combined with leading sweeps, sideways pull strokes/leading sweeps, hard felt deburr, and finish with those short leading passes in sections
 
Well, the old guys got it right so many years ago. And I've been says so for a long time. Take any manual or brochure or something from 100 years ago and will see just that.

Carl Kotte said:
I cannot do edge leading strokes - my technique is too poor. I had better start practicing though judging from this thread.
Click to expand...

Can be learned, conditioned even. One way to start this is by going back the same way you did the edge trailing. Mistakes will be made, but it matters not. You learn the motion and how to feel the bevel.
Edge trailing is better for a beginner since it might not hurt the knife or the stone if anything goes wrong. But it's not like you can do it wrong all the time and still be good :) Even this has some things to consider and on the long run, it's a bit harder to get best edges with as many blades and stones as possible.

If you use soft stones, edge leading strokes tend to build up some frustration while learning. Keep that in mind.
 
Thanks @kayman67. I have done a few first attempts now, and I think I’m making some progress. We’ll see. I expect it to take a while before I begin to get the hang of it and see the results.
 
kayman67 said:
Well, the old guys got it right so many years ago. And I've been says so for a long time. Take any manual or brochure or something from 100 years ago and will see just that.



Can be learned, conditioned even. One way to start this is by going back the same way you did the edge trailing. Mistakes will be made, but it matters not. You learn the motion and how to feel the bevel.
Edge trailing is better for a beginner since it might not hurt the knife or the stone if anything goes wrong. But it's not like you can do it wrong all the time and still be good :) Even this has some things to consider and on the long run, it's a bit harder to get best edges with as many blades and stones as possible.

If you use soft stones, edge leading strokes tend to build up some frustration while learning. Keep that in mind.
Click to expand...

Much harder when first trying on softer stones. Fail harder, but, learn faster.
 
captaincaed said:
I think edge leading on water stones is going to lead to some pretty gouged stones...
Click to expand...

Not really. I can't think of a single stone so soft that it isn't possible to go edge leading by lightening up sufficiently on the pressure. The Sigma Power 8k is like a marshmallow made of chalk, and it's still just a matter of keeping the angle and pressure under control.
 
Learning to sharpen on softer stone from the start is better in my opinion since
captaincaed said:
I think edge leading on water stones is going to lead to some pretty gouged stones...
Click to expand...

Not likely. I haven't seen this with anything so far for years. But there is the need for a fairly flat stone. Not perfect, not true flat, but fairly flat.
 
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