[first gyuto, eu, low-mid budget] help me buy the first piece of my collection.

[bobo990]

Hi guys.

I got a blast chiller and find myself making more and more sushi at home. I d like to grab a deba and yana but i fear that wpuld be a bit complex to care as my first j knifes. Expensive also.

So i thought to dip my toe into the jk ives world by getting a normal knife: a generalist.

At the moment i use a trusty opinel 118 that i like very much. 200mm blade, It is light 150g, ss with 56-58hrc, balance point at the pinch, thin with 3mm at handle and flat ground. It is a very good knife that endure my abuse, my bad sharpenings, and the dishwasher (i know...)

I also tried a tojiro dp 808 in vg10 that i gifted to my mum and i did not liked it at all... Chonky, heavy, wedgy with carrots and sticky with potatoes. Not dull, but not laser sharp ootb either. I hoped it would be better tbh.

Sooo... Suggest me something light and laserish?

In additon to my knife, I have also eyeing this for the wife... Any opinions? Kagemitsu 職人技 Shokunin-waza SRS13 Powdersteel Santoku (universal knife), 165 mm

Here goes the questionaire.

LOCATION

Europe. I d like to have something available in eu to not mess around import duties


KNIFE TYPE

Gyuto, i think.

Are you right or left handed?
Right


Japanese handle


What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

180 to 210

Carbon


What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

170ish€ but if i spend less i am happy

KNIFE USE

Home


What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for

Mostly veggies, some meat (most come pre portioned) some fish


What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Opinel 118, and a paterno santoku that i dont like.

Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use?

Mostly pull cutting, some chopping, a bit of rocking.


What improvements do you want from your current knife?

I dont care much about aestetic, and if anaythinf i steer thoward minimalism.

About my opinel knife i like the low weight (150g with western handle), the balance point at the pinch grip point and the nimbless..


Edge Retention 1 month in home use...


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? Yes i got a shapton pro 1000 and a ceramic rod

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? I was eyeing a shapton glass 4000 as my next stone.


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Id like something that does not need thinkering thinning out of the box. I value cutting performace over aesthethic or fit and finish i like light, nimble, well balanced knives, no workhorses. I think i d love to try a "laser"

I am not agansit buying used but the eu market is slim

Here some knifes i have bee eyeing but fewl free to suggest more

https://www.meesterslijpers.nl/en/kazoku-aogami-super-wa-koksmes-21-cm
https://www.dictum.com/en/tradition...yuto-fish-and-meat-knife-719944?number=719944
https://www.japaneseknives.eu/a-736...gyuto-chef-s-knife-210-mm-keyaki/#description
https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/tanuki-kurouchi-gyuto-210mm/





Thanks for having read this rambly wall of text and for your inputs.

 

[plantgainz]

Kyohei would be a good choice to start with, very thin and pretty cheap. Knivesworld has slightly pricer ones in bocote, lovely handles! Where are you located in Italy?

 

[Jovidah]

Any particular reason you're looking for carbon?
Getting something laserish at that price point within EU is... Challenging. Especially if lack of food release also bothers you.

 

[Uncle Danny]

Chase down a Matsubara gyuto on Meesterslijbers - a lot of knife there

 

[plantgainz]

Chase down a Matsubara gyuto on Meesterslijbers - a lot of knife there

Wasn't thinking of the shirogami one, true Matsubara are great

 

[JayS20]

Wouldn't really recommend Matsubara.
Too much variation in grind. Friend sent three back because how much they sucked. Got a good one in the end exchanging mails and picking the best. Also FnF is meh.
Kyohei Shindo is one of my recs for low budget knives. Then there is for stainless the Culilux, also the K-Sabatier 200. It's getting discontinued so prices are reduced, it's a solid and thin knife. Couteaux de cuisine professionnels série 200 manche G10 - Sabatier K
Also like Masutani quite some.
Ashi and the like are out of your budget

 

[bobo990]

Thanks to all of you gor your kind reply. Much appreciated.

Kyohei would be a good choice to start with, very thin and pretty cheap. Knivesworld has slightly pricer ones in bocote, lovely handles! Where are you located in Italy?

I have seen the bocote handles, very pretty indeed...

I live near Florence.

Any particular reason you're looking for carbon?
Getting something laserish at that price point within EU is... Challenging. Especially if lack of food release also bothers you.

Mmmm... I thought about carbon because from what i ve read here on the forum it seems to be more sharpenable for a give price point. From what i ve read to get the same performace in stainless pne shuld go to PM steels, and this up the price significantly.


Secondly for the sharpenablity... My endgoal is to have and care for single edges so i see this as training ground.

But those are not facts, just my noobie thought process and can be full of noobie errors.

I d welcome suggestions for ss knives as well if they fit my use case and budget. Or importing if it makea sense all things considererd.

Chase down a Matsubara gyuto on Meesterslijbers - a lot of knife there

Thanks for the suggestion. It pushes a bit the budget: 199€.... Is it much better than the kyohei above? It is almost double the price... I can do if it is worth...

 

[Smidderton]

for EU you could also check what tetogi, karasu and cleancuthave in stock...

 

[Benuser]

Wouldn't really recommend Matsubara.
Too much variation in grind. Friend sent three back because how much they sucked. Got a good one in the end exchanging mails and picking the best. Also FnF is meh.
Kyohei Shindo is one of my recs for low budget knives. Then there is for stainless the Culilux, also the K-Sabatier 200. It's getting discontinued so prices are reduced, it's a solid and thin knife. Couteaux de cuisine professionnels série 200 manche G10 - Sabatier K
Also like Masutani quite some.
Ashi and the like are out of your budget

The 25cm Sabatier in 14C28N is a fantastic knife. It were a shame to stop at 1k with it, though, but that will apply to most decent blades.

 

[bobo990]

for EU you could also check what tetogi, karasu and cleancuthave in stock...

Thanks for the shops. I didnt knew some of them.

The issue is that i am having hard time discerning good knifes from bad... And more so knives that i might like to use from knifes that dont encounter my taste.

For example... Is thia good? Seems pretty.

Ao2 and stainless clasd

https://karasu-knives.com/collections/available/products/aaa-137m-24-fa180

 

[plantgainz]

Forgot cleancut offer has a lot of carbon stuff, kamo aogami super both carbon and stainless clad Nd there's possibly something in your price range from masashi kobo, nao Yamamoto and maybe hinoura.

 

[plantgainz]

The 25cm Sabatier in 14C28N is a fantastic knife. It were a shame to stop at 1k with it, though, but that will apply to most decent blades.

Totally trust your opinion, just can't get away from the choil I've seen, probably not represntative of the whole package

 

[Smidderton]

For me "taste" changed over time a lot. First I prefered blades that were more for rock cutting, with plenty of curve / belly. Now I prefere straighter blades with less belly. The three shops sell good knives. All a matter of preference and budget. The Futana should be fine. Personally I'd rather go with the Kikuchiu Ren White 2 which is forged by Satoshi Nakagawa... Hitohira Kikuchiyo Ren White #2 Gyuto 210mm Ho Wood Handle
Espescially since I heard a lot of good stuff about Nakagawa's work. Should be worth the 30€ extra.

 

[Jovidah]

Mmmm... I thought about carbon because from what i ve read here on the forum it seems to be more sharpenable for a give price point. From what i ve read to get the same performace in stainless pne shuld go to PM steels, and this up the price significantly.


Secondly for the sharpenablity... My endgoal is to have and care for single edges so i see this as training ground.

But those are not facts, just my noobie thought process and can be full of noobie errors.

I d welcome suggestions for ss knives as well if they fit my use case and budget. Or importing if it makea sense all things considererd.

Honestly... since this is pretty much your 'one good knife' I'd lean towards something at least (semi) stainless.... or if you go carbon something at least stainless clad. Just easier to deal with and IMO you don't really lose out on that much.
Carbon's main advantage is easier to sharpen but if it's a good stainless steel it's not that big of a difference. Difference in edge retention is debatable, especially when you're looking at white #2 carbons.
If you just want something for sharpening practise you can basically buy any cheapest carbon on the market and be done with it.

Now the problem is.... finding a stainless laser in that price range. The Takamura R2 might work for you (and is in a great PM steel to boot), but it's rarely in stock and prices have gone up. The K-Sabatier 200 already mentioned is worth considering; they're quite cheap now and fit what you're looking for: light, laserish, practical. One thing that does kind of set it apart is that the profile gravitates towards rock-chopping, but if that's what you're already doing (considering your current Opinel knife), then that could actually be a benefit.

Thanks for the shops. I didnt knew some of them.

The issue is that i am having hard time discerning good knifes from bad... And more so knives that i might like to use from knifes that dont encounter my taste.

For example... Is thia good? Seems pretty.

Ao2 and stainless clasd

https://karasu-knives.com/collections/available/products/aaa-137m-24-fa180

Honestly even if you have a clue about knives judging quality from photos without having actually held the knife in hand - or better yet: used it - is extremely difficult.

 

[blokey]

Tadafusa is nice, stainless classed carbon, pretty forgiving

 

[Delat]

In addition to the Takamura R2, you might try looking for a Takamura VG10. My sister got one last year on sale for around $100.

Here’s the list I made for her to consider - generally thin knives under $200. You’ll have to do your own searching to see if they’re available in the EU.

Yoshikane SKD 180mm
Epicurean Edge: Japanese and European professional chefs knives

Shiro Kamo Aogami Super - not stainless
Shinko Seilan Aogami Super Gyuto 210 mm by Shiro Kamo

Takamura Migaki R2 or VG10 - stainless
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/takamura.html

Akifusa Migaki Aogami Super - stainless clad
Epicurean Edge: Japanese and European professional chefs knives

Kaeru Kasumi - stainless
Kaeru Kasumi Stainless Gyuto 210mm

Shibata bunka R2 - stainless
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/shkobu17.html

 

[nopomo]

Cleancut carry what appears to be their own branding of the Kanehide PS60/Hitohira KH: Kashima RS-60

Thin, convex, tough as anything.

 

[Jovidah]

https://www.meesterslijpers.nl/en/takamura-vg-10-migaki-gyuto-21-cm?search=takamurahttps://www.meesterslijpers.nl/en/takamura-migaki-r2-gyuto-21-cm?search=takamura
Meesterslijpers has both of them in store. I don't know if there's much of a difference between the two apart from the handle color and the steel (I only own the R2).
The R2 is probably one of the best affordable thin lasers that still sort of fits within your budget. It's not perfect tho; spine and choil aren't rounded, and due to the very thin san-mai construction it feels somewhat delicate - almost toylike. But with your budget you'll always be in compromise-land one way or another.

And since someone mentioned Tadafusa; they also offer some knives in SLD.
For example: Tadafusa Hocho Gyuto 21 cm Meesterslijpers | Knivesworld (currently sold out)
And all their carbons are at least stainless clad. But I never used any of their knives so I can't really say anything about their performance.

 

[Delat]

https://www.meesterslijpers.nl/en/takamura-vg-10-migaki-gyuto-21-cm?search=takamurahttps://www.meesterslijpers.nl/en/takamura-migaki-r2-gyuto-21-cm?search=takamura
Meesterslijpers has both of them in store. I don't know if there's much of a difference between the two apart from the handle color and the steel (I only own the R2).
The R2 is probably one of the best affordable thin lasers that still sort of fits within your budget. It's not perfect tho; spine and choil aren't rounded, and due to the very thin san-mai construction it feels somewhat delicate - almost toylike. But with your budget you'll always be in compromise-land one way or another.

And since someone mentioned Tadafusa; they also offer some knives in SLD.
For example: Tadafusa Hocho Gyuto 21 cm Meesterslijpers | Knivesworld (currently sold out)
And all their carbons are at least stainless clad. But I never used any of their knives so I can't really say anything about their performance.

For the 39 Euro difference I'd go with R2.

 

[Uncle Danny]

All the Matsubara I’ve seen has been very good cutters with a high profile. I dig them. But you are going to get a lot of different answers here.
Meesterslijbers are a great place to shop. Same goes for Tetogi and Cleancut.

 

[Heckel7302]

Yeah, if you can be ok with a western handle, Takamura really owns the inexpensive laser space.

Or, if you can deal with a 165mm knife, and stretch the budget a bit, this would be awesome

https://www.meesterslijpers.nl/en/shibata-koutetsu-aogami-super-santoku
I have the 180 bunka and it's one of my favorite knives. Laser defined.

 

[Jovidah]

In the budget laser category there's also the Robert Herder knives... but food release is not their strong suit. Although admittedly that goes for most of the lasers.

 

[ehhh]

My first real Japanese knife was a Tadafusa 210mm blue 2 stainless clad and I like it a lot. I don’t leave it wet or cut acidic stuff with it, but it’s not super reactive. Despite being stainless, the cladding has also picked up a faint blue patina. The out of the box edge isn’t amazing, but seems to touch up easily. I definitely wouldn't classify it as a laser, it's more of a mid-weight at 170g.

Mine is slightly blade heavy because the balance is right at the front edge of my pinch grip. It doesn't feel especially nimble, but not unwieldy either. It's thin, but not too thin behind the edge and has a convex wide bevel that has decent food release. The profile has a good amount of belly at the tip and a continuous curve towards the heel. I'm not sure it would be my first choice for pull cutting because of the profile.

It's a real average Joe - not exceptional in any one way, but does most things well. For the price, and as a stepping stone into the world of Japanese knives I think it's hard to beat. My collection has blown up since and while I prefer a flatter profile for push/pull cutting, I still use this one quite a bit.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Obligatory +1 for Kyohei Shindo. You'll get a laser edge but thicker spine for more comfort than a true "laser" that is super thin throughout. I'd recommend paying for a professional finish sharpening from the vendor you purchase it from if they offer it so you know what the knife feels like at peak performance. Would recommend that with any one you get honestly. Cladding isn't particularly reactive, easy/fun to sharpen and will maintain a good edge for your uses.

Cleancut is a great EU vendor, they offer several lines from Shiro Kamo that would suit your purposes nicely, and theirs tend to be thinner than the line he makes for Knives&Stones. The "Akuma" line is stainless clad aogami super, thin and slicey, but very hard steel so can be brittle and chip if not cared for properly. The "Tora" line is carbon-clad aogami #2 and makes a great patina canvas, also quite thin but not a true laser. It might be worth checking out his VG10 line; some folks rag on that steel but the Takefu smiths work it better than most and he generally makes fairly hard steel. I quite enjoy his gyuto profiles.

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/gyuto/petty_knife_vg10-4136-4137-detail

 

[M1k3]

for EU you could also check what tetogi, karasu and cleancuthave in stock...

And JNS.

 

[bobo990]

I am amazed at the quantyty of support and help i am reciving in this forum.

You guys are a good crowd, it is not common.

Thank you very much.

I will need a couple of days in front of a multitab computer to ponder and look at all the options you are reccomanding.

Cheers.

 

[Seemore]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234407593254?hash=item3693c80526:g:-kgAAOSwX8lh~ikr
edit-sorry, I missed the Japanese handle preference. There are some Ashi knives there with that handle, too.

 

[Nemo]

Hard to go past Shiro Kamo Kurochi at this price point.

My gyutos are from KnS and both are pretty thin. My suji is more of a thicker convex grind.

 

[Benuser]

Totally trust your opinion, just can't get away from the choil I've seen, probably not represntative of the whole package

Would you mind sharing the choil pic you referred to?

 

[plantgainz]

Would you mind sharing the choil pic you referred to?

K Sabatier - 200 Range - 10