Flattening shapton pro 120

[Pie]

Got this one for speedier thinning. It appears to work well, doesn’t glaze much and takes off steel faster than anything else I have. Eventually it does of course begin to dish - atoma doesn’t seem to be a good option, I tried some 80 grit sandpaper, it’s taking forever. Anything short of sic powder? Do I need one of those nanohone flattening plates?

I know there’s been a couple threads re: coarse stones lately, but any suggestions for this stone specifically?

 

[Rangen]

Nanohone flattening plates, which I have, do not seem to be designed for efficiently flattening a noticeably dished stone. They're for making a nearly-flat stone really flat. Maybe just my opinion? If you go this way, make sure yours is designed for lower-grit stones; some of them aren't.

For me, a played-out diamond plate was faster than a gigantic flattening stone, on Shapton Glass at least. But I wasn't dealing with serious dishing. If I were, I'd use SiC powder as a first resort. Sandpaper should also work well, if you change sheets a lot. Each sheet isn't effective for all that long.

 

[refcast]

Sic powder's cheaper alternative is sand on a brick or other flattish surface. I've read this being done in Japan befoe more formal flattening methods were developed

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

SiC powder and deal with the mess.

You might also consider a Baryonx Mantircore or Mutt for the heavy thinning work. Less prone to dishing, no less of a pain if the do. @jwthaparc is a Manticore fan.

 

[inferno]

Got this one for speedier thinning. It appears to work well, doesn’t glaze much and takes off steel faster than anything else I have. Eventually it does of course begin to dish - atoma doesn’t seem to be a good option, I tried some 80 grit sandpaper, it’s taking forever. Anything short of sic powder? Do I need one of those nanohone flattening plates?

I know there’s been a couple threads re: coarse stones lately, but any suggestions for this stone specifically?

hehehe whatever the **** you do, dont ever put this stone on a diamond plate!!

so i have the 120. and i have lots of experience with it.
if you really want to flatten it you should get 60 grit sic powder on glass/granite. with water.
and then when its flat. you add more powder and rub it on fresh coarse powder. dont let it break down to finer..
otherwise the stone will become "finer".

i'm using the 60 grit powder between the 120 and a 200x50mm SiC stone (no oil in this). that way i dont have to break out the big glass plate.

with that being said these days i just try to wear down the high parts of the stone with the blade. so i basically never flatten it at all. and while this results in a stone that is never completely flat. this doesn't really matter. since it will be going to my 220 and that might be flat. and then to a 500 or 1k. and these are actually flat. so no real need for a totally flat 120 imo.

good luck.

 

[M1k3]

Another option I use on that stone, 60 grit 3m Pro sandpaper. Lay it down on something flat. The backing is rubberized, grips pretty good. Depending on the surface, a little bit of water on the backing will help keep it in place.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

Loose grit on granite or something is probably the best way to go but as I don’t have space for that I use a grooved stone fixer (I think those are SiC) for flattening coarse stones. Most brands offer one plus many generics, they’re relatively inexpensive, under $50, and they work.

Also, and loose grit probably accomplishes the same but diamond plates fail at this, the surface dressing after one of these is superior. I’m not sure what is going on technically — if the diamond leaves it too smooth, or it’s because it abrades the particles equally with the matrix, or what, but even on fine stones I get a better result using the fixer for a couple passes after the diamond plate. When my Mutt loads and needs to be dressed, this is the way to go.

 

[Pie]

I’ll try the sand on brick method, and if they doesn’t fly, try source a stone fixer, and last resort that sic powder. I fear the mess and pain in the ass but if there’s no other way, there’s no other way. The thinning itch is too strong. Thanks for all the suggestions guys, much appreciated!

 

[Rangen]

The mess of SiC powder is manageable if you use water (and my experience is that using water makes it more effective, and keeps you from needing a mask and goggles). A nice granite tile or piece of flat glass, laid out on a generous breadth of newspaper, and the mess is contained. Afterwards, take a hose to the tile or glass, toss the newspaper, and you're done.

 

[Qapla']

You might also consider a Baryonx Mantircore or Mutt for the heavy thinning work. Less prone to dishing, no less of a pain if the do. @jwthaparc is a Manticore fan.

So how do you flatten a Manticore or Mutt stone?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

So how do you flatten a Manticore or Mutt stone?

Fortunately I haven't had to flatten my Manticore yet but most use SiC powder.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Got this one for speedier thinning. It appears to work well, doesn’t glaze much and takes off steel faster than anything else I have. Eventually it does of course begin to dish - atoma doesn’t seem to be a good option, I tried some 80 grit sandpaper, it’s taking forever. Anything short of sic powder? Do I need one of those nanohone flattening plates?

I know there’s been a couple threads re: coarse stones lately, but any suggestions for this stone specifically?

I don't know about Nanohone's diamond plate, but I suspect it would be similar to the Shapton Diamond Glass Lapping Plate(DGLP). Shapton says "do not use the DGLP on stones below 500 grit.

I have the DGLP, and my coarse Shapton Glass plates are the SG 120 ,220, 320, and 500. Lee Valley Tools has plate glass for under $20. and 60 grit SiC powder is easy to find.

After reading here that Shapton Glass 120's can "dish", I decided to add a bullet-proof Norton Crystolon coarse/fine stone to handle only the most seriously damaged blade edges.(knives with "mushroomed" edges" from hammering on bones/frozen foods, etc) Basically, I'm breaking down "coarse" to two separate operations;,,, one for repair (removing protruding edge-damage that can score the surface of the 120), and one for reshaping the blade-edge after the heavier damage is removed..

 

[M1k3]

One thing with the Shapton Pro 120, the more "scratching" the stone surface the knife does, the longer the time is before it glazes over and stops cutting.

 

[Rangen]

I don't know about Nanohone's diamond plate, but I suspect it would be similar to the Shapton Diamond Glass Lapping Plate(DGLP). Shapton says "do not use the DGLP on stones below 500 grit.

Nanohone NL-4: " The Nano-Hone NL-4 Lapping Plate is designed to flatten waterstones from 110μm to 10μm (120grit to 1500grit). "
NL-5: "The NL-5 lapping plate is designed to flatten all whetstones from 35μm to 0.5μm (400 grit to 30,000 grit range). "
NL-8 and NL-10 have the same recommended range as NL-5

So I have an NL-10 for most stones, and an NL-4 for coarse stones.

 

[Bobby2shots]

One thing with the Shapton Pro 120, the more "scratching" the stone surface the knife does, the longer the time is before it glazes over and stops cutting.

Yeah, "scratching" is not so bad,,, but gouging/very deep/wide scratches is another story. I sharpened a bunch of knives for a lady who bought 16 used/donated knives at a thrift store, and most had such severe mushrooming of the edges that I had to use an axe file in order to remove the worst of the damage. The bevels were literally crushed, with metal mushroomed toward both sides of the apex, along the entire length of the blades. It looks like someone had hammered these knives into bone or frozen foods. Three or four of the blades were split/cracked. Mind you, she paid from $0.25 to $1.00 for her "collection".

 

[M1k3]

Yeah, "scratching" is not so bad,,, but gouging/very deep/wide scratches is another story. I sharpened a bunch of knives for a lady who bought 16 used/donated knives at a thrift store, and most had such severe mushrooming of the edges that I had to use an axe file in order to remove the worst of the damage. The bevels were literally crushed, with metal mushroomed toward both sides of the apex, along the entire length of the blades. It looks like someone had hammered these knives into bone or frozen foods. Three or four of the blades were split/cracked. Mind you, she paid from $0.25 to $1.00 for her "collection".

Sounds like perfect candidates to create slurry on the SP 120

 

[IsoJ]

I found that SiC powder works best and fast for me and not so messy after all. I fix tips on the stone too sometimes, making grooves across the surface, it helps with the clogging(downsize maybe wearing the stone faster but I don't care )

 

[Luftmensch]

It appears to work well, doesn’t glaze much and takes off steel faster than anything else I have.

The SP120 is very much a love/hate relationship. It is great when it is cutting: fast and resistant to dishing (hard). But, for me, it glazes superfast - in 30 seconds or so. From there it still cuts, but noticeably slower, and the level of polish is higher. If you havent refreshed the surface of your SP120 recently... you may not remember how fast it can cut! If so, jog your memory!

try source a stone fixer, and last resort that sic powder.

I purchased a Naniwa flattening stone to both refresh the surface and flatten the stone. It sucks for both. I purchased the 24 grit version - reasoning that you want a lower grit flattener than the stone you are correcting. As you would expect, the grains are huge and bonded tightly into the stone. Flattening and refreshing the surface is slow. It is okay on softer stones (resinoid and ceramic) but disappointing on harder (sintered) surfaces.

To be fair. Manufacturers often recommend using SiC grit with these dressing stones anyway. I tried using 80 grit SiC + the flattening stone and the result was only ok.


The best experience I have had for refreshing the surface of the SP120 is using a worn-out 140 grit Atoma plate. The bight in this plate disappeared many moons ago. While I wouldn't recommend ruining a fresh diamond plate on the SP120... I wouldnt rule out diamond plates completely. As always with diamond plates, dont substitute work for high pressure. Only use as much pressure as you need to cut the surface and no more. I probably wouldnt recommend flattening the SP120 with a diamond plate... but if you deglaze the surface every 30-60 seconds, you will maintain a relatively flat surface and fast cutting (edit: super-awesome if you leave the slurry generated by the plate). This is what I do and I do not get the impression the SP120 is rapidly sapping the life out of the Atoma.... But the stone is likely to be rough ( ) on the plate... Caveat emptor...

 

[Pie]

My wife can’t make sense of “I need this $300 thing to maintain my $50 scratchy rock” . Then at some point I have to think you’ll have to deal with some sort of wear and tear on the NL-4.

@Luftmensch i get impatiently carried away while thinning, and thus the dishing is much more a me problem than an equipment issue. As soon as I get this thing flat I think the dressing process should help keep things relatively flat.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I own a Nano Hone NL-4. There's no way I'd use it on a 120 grit stone.

 

[Cliff]

I have a super coarse diamond stone for flattening coarse stones. It was expensive, but it has held up well for a year or so.

 

[Kawa]

The SP120 is very much a love/hate relationship. It is great when it is cutting: fast and resistant to dishing (hard). But, for me, it glazes superfast - in 30 seconds or so. From there it still cuts, but noticeably slower, and the level of polish is higher. If you havent refreshed the surface of your SP120 recently... you may not remember how fast it can cut! If so, jog your memory!



I purchased a Naniwa flattening stone to both refresh the surface and flatten the stone. It sucks for both. I purchased the 24 grit version - reasoning that you want a lower grit flattener than the stone you are correcting. As you would expect, the grains are huge and bonded tightly into the stone. Flattening and refreshing the surface is slow. It is okay on softer stones (resinoid and ceramic) but disappointing on harder (sintered) surfaces.

To be fair. Manufacturers often recommend using SiC grit with these dressing stones anyway. I tried using 80 grit SiC + the flattening stone and the result was only ok.


The best experience I have had for refreshing the surface of the SP120 is using a worn-out 140 grit Atoma plate. The bight in this plate disappeared many moons ago. While I wouldn't recommend ruining a fresh diamond plate on the SP120... I wouldnt rule out diamond plates completely. As always with diamond plates, dont substitute work for high pressure. Only use as much pressure as you need to cut the surface and no more. I probably wouldnt recommend flattening the SP120 with a diamond plate... but if you deglaze the surface every 30-60 seconds, you will maintain a relatively flat surface and fast cutting (edit: super-awesome if you leave the slurry generated by the plate). This is what I do and I do not get the impression the SP120 is rapidly sapping the life out of the Atoma.... But the stone is likely to be rough ( ) on the plate... Caveat emptor...

The behaviour of the SP120 sounds exactly the same as the Shapton glass 120. Extremely fast when fresh, hard so doesnt dish, but glazes wihtin a minut or so on certain (most) steels.
Refreshing it every minut doesnt sound like an option for me, so I tend to use it as a 'higher gritt' most of the time.
I use SiC powder to refresh it and keep it flat.



The other thing you are mentioning, about the naniwa flattenign stones.
I have the 220 and the 24 gritt.
The 220 seems usable on almost every stone for flattening. I'd say its the less messy in-home version of sic powder for me.
Ofcourse, really course stones don't get their coarseness back, but you can flatten them rather easy (I use pencil stripes on the stone untill they are all gone). Speedwise it's not that much faster of slower then sic powder.

The 24 gritt version is completely useless for me. It only scratches (deep) into you stones, without actually flattening them. The 220 gritt creates mud, a signal of abrading for me.
The 24 gritt only ruins my stones but it doesnt seem to create any mud, nor the pencil stripes will dissapear on my stones.

What am I saying? If you dont like the 24 gritt version, the 220 might do the job for you.

Sic powder is still the best for me. Flattening stone doesnt work on every stone. For example, the Naniwa pro 400, which also glazes extremely fast in my hands, can be flattened with the 220 gritt stone, but that flattening stone makes the pro400 feel like a 1000 gritt stone (makes the glazing worse).
On the other hand, it works great on the chosera 600

 

[Blank Blades.]

SiC powder and deal with the mess.

You might also consider a Baryonx Mantircore or Mutt for the heavy thinning work. Less prone to dishing, no less of a pain if the do. @jwthaparc is a Manticore fan.

I am a fan, and use it a lot for my sharpening gig. The main problem with it is when it needs flattening. You need 36 grit sic powder. And let me tell you 36 grit sic powder eats away at whatever you are using as the base to flatten on almost as fast as it eats away at the stone.

 

[inferno]

i dont even flatten my 120ies. i just use them and i still feel they have good bite.

 

[Blank Blades.]

i dont even flatten my 120ies. i just use them and i still feel they have good bite.

Yeah. The only time I ever felt my 120 wasn't biting well was after trying to flatten it with my atoma 140. Completely glazed it over.

I have a feeling when people say they have a problem with them glazing over they are probably doing so by trying to flatten or recondition them, or they aren't allowing the slurry to collect.

 

[ReiHamono]

150 grit atoma brick or sanding paper 60 grit placed on top of counter top

 

[spaceconvoy]

I gave up trying to flatten mine, or using it for blade faces in general. I still like keeping it around for spine profiles because that totally sucks to do on sandpaper. Now it's a pockmarked mess, but more useful to me than it was before.

 

[Bobby2shots]

The "secret" might be to flatten and recondition under plenty of running water, with the Atoma on the bottom facing up, and the 120 upside-down against the Atoma. Tilt slightly to one side to allow adequate run-off.

 

[Pie]

Haven’t given it a shot yet.. kinda feel guilty about it, but trying to thin less and polish more these days. Plenty of good advice tho guys!

 

[M1k3]

Leave the mud. Gashes in the surface help release grit somewhat. Stainless cladding tends to create mud and get the stone working again.

For flattening, loose SiC is the most effective method, also somewhat messy. Super coarse sandpaper works decently and not to terribly messy.

If you're worried about diamond plate longevity, don't use it on this stone.