Food Release: Stiction and the Grind

Discussion in 'Handiwork Display' started by Kippington, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Jun 27, 2018 #91

    Nemo

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    Looking bloody amazing!

    Can you see the hardening line in person? I'm guessing probably not given that 52100 is deeper hardening.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  2. Jun 27, 2018 #92

    TEWNCfarms

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    Whoa! Crazy! At first I thought it was just a simple looking Stamped steel but then I saw how it tapered in then came back out for the large bevel (whatever it’s called?), this knife is sick! How much are you letting this go for?! If it’s a knife passaround is there ANY WAY I could get on the list!?!
     
  3. Jun 27, 2018 #93

    TEWNCfarms

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    That is awesome brother! Keep up the amazing work! As marek said, you Need to patent this before shun or wustof steal it from you! Again, if you’re looking to sell any of your prototypes or at least doing passarounds PLEASE keep me in mind!
     
  4. Jun 27, 2018 #94

    Kippington

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    I doubt you can patent a knife grind!

    This one is going to Nemo. No hardening line sorry, I chickened out of trying to do it that way. The stock was getting thinner after all the thermo-cycling and I didn't want to risk putting it through a water quench.

    Yeah Craig, at the recent Melbourne Blade Show I bought some 52100 and Takefu Shirogami Damascus to try. It's been interesting, but there's a demand for the water hardening steels after the passaround thread, so I'm going back to that soon.

    I've finally worked out how to polish the hamon too, so it should be good to revisit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  5. Jun 27, 2018 #95

    Jville

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    Damn kipp that's looking nice, I'm jelly. That's more the finish I was imaging on the hook grind
     
  6. Jun 27, 2018 #96

    Kippington

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    Yeah sorry Jville, I had no idea how to polish the knife when I made the first one. It turns out I needed to construct the blade in a different order to make it possible.

    Yours will always be the first!
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  7. Jun 27, 2018 #97

    Marek07

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    Looking really good there Mr K! You've always made very nice cutters, now they're lookers as well.
    Put me down for a couple please. :) :rolleyes:
     
  8. Jun 27, 2018 #98

    panda

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    I'm very curious how your treatment of 52100 turns out
     
  9. Jun 28, 2018 #99

    TEWNCfarms

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    Why not? It is unique design of something, people patent the dumbest **** that’s just a minor difference in something else. I’m sure you could do it. It’d cost a Lot of money though (I believe)
     
  10. Jun 28, 2018 #100

    milkbaby

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    Third time's the charm they say... ;)
     
  11. Jul 15, 2018 #101

    Nemo

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    I have been using and comparing the 52100 240 (plus a bit) mm hook grind knife for a couple of weeks now.

    The blade finish is great. It's semi-mirror. There are a FEW barely visible short linear coarse grind marks in the depths of the hook recess (about halfway up the blade) which are really only apparent because or the overall quality of the remainder of the finish. Given that Kip was not confident about being able to polish the hook crevice at all and this one was his first attempt at polishing it, I'm super stoked with the finish. The hardening line is not visible. The spine and choil are beautifully rounded, the choil rounding formed to fit the middle finger on the right blade face. The pine handle has a darker wood ferrule and an aluminum spacer. It's well tapered and comfortable.

    The profile has a decent flat spot just in front of the heel, then a curve up to a mid height tip (I was given the option of a low, mid or high tip). The spine tapers along its entire length, more pronouned at the very thin tip. The knife is moderately heavy and quite blade heavy.

    This knife is very thin behind the edge but the top of the hook bevel is less thin. Overall performance in hard tall foods is like a middleweight, just a tiny bit more wedgey than my (new grind) Gengetsu 240, maybe a little less than my 270mm Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi. Much less than my Mizuno Hontanren wide bevel and my Yoshikane SKD Tsuchime.

    Food release is amazing. Overall stiction in wet food is less than my (quite workhorsey) Mizuno and slightly less than my (very workhorsey) Yoshikane (still need to test it vs my Watanabe). Fine diced carrot, onioin and zucchini simply falls off the blade after the hook bevel.

    Edge retention is probably in between well HT examples of white and blue. Which I guess is what you'd expecet given the steel's composition. I have stropped it twice. Once to repir a very minor edge ding (edge vs faucet, visible only as a glint of light on the edge), which came out with two stropping passes on a dry 8k Kitayama. Just yesterday after 2 weeks of continuous home use, I thought that the edge could do with a refresh. Once again, 2 light stropping passes on dry Kitayama bought the edge back to life. I reckon it's gonna be super easy to sharpen.

    Reactivity is mild. It formed a grey-white patina after a bit over a week.

    To me, this knife performs like a middleweight with the food release of a workhorse grind. I really like it. Really like it. The grind and profile are super and the fit and finish on the blade is very good. Well done, Kip.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  12. Jul 15, 2018 #102

    Kippington

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    I'm glad you're enjoying the knife!
    Awesome write up, feedback is always greatly appreciated. Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  13. Jul 15, 2018 #103

    Nemo

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    Comparison of blade adherence to:
    1) Gengetsu SS:
    20180715_145404.jpeg

    2) Yoshikane Tsuchime SKD:
    20180715_150106.jpeg

    Also a spine shot depicting taper:
    20180715_145310~2.jpeg
     
  14. Jul 15, 2018 #104

    Nemo

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    I note that adherence of food to the blade and stiction in wet food are two different aspects af food release which don't necessarily go together. The hook grind seems to do them both well.

    There was some question as to whether the hook would catch on onioin during horizontal cuts. This hasn't been an issue so far in my use.
     
  15. Oct 8, 2018 #105

    rick alen

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    You can patent anything that [can successfully be shown] to have uniqueness/improvement of function, the law firm has a lot to do with this. Takes 3-4 years to actually get the patent, and figure at least $15K lawyer and patent office fees, and possibly double that depending on the number of patent reviews it has to go through. No money back if rejected. Think it worth it?
     
  16. Oct 8, 2018 #106

    Kippington

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    $15k and all that work for a maybe? Wow sod that, unless someone wants to spot me the cash! :D
    I'm actually curious: If anyone does attempt to copy this grind, what method will they come up with to polish it? It's a pain in the ass haha!
    [​IMG]
    On a separate note, I've had some interest from the German KKF for a passaround. They'd like to compare this hook style of food release against some of the other major players - Dalman, Xerxes and the like.
    It got me thinking, if I make one for them I should definitely make a second passaround for this forum too. Fit and finish would be worse than above. Maybe just for fun I could call a lottery for the last spot in the rotation, whoever ends with it would get to keep it.

    The thing is I get requests for custom orders faster than I make the knives (I'm a slow hobbyist maker), and I cant just ignore those. :confused:
    I gotta work this out...
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  17. Oct 8, 2018 #107

    rick alen

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    Oh btw, it's too late for a patent anyways as you have already publicly released the design.

    You can try electropolishing, minimum batch quantities are typically around $200, and that would cover a pretty large batch of knives, they will possibly do some free sample pieces for you. The EP house can tell you what sort of finish you need to rough it to, I think a 220 grit sandpaper would be OK, possibly not even that fine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
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  18. Oct 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM #108

    merlijny2k

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    Seek out a company that can drop-forge the blades and launch a kickstarter that actually rocks the whole kitchen knife world. That way the whole world can benefit.

    Don't forget to include a lefty version though.
     
  19. Oct 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM #109

    panda

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    kip when are you going to give KU finish a try? =P
     
  20. Oct 15, 2018 at 9:43 PM #110

    Nemo

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    From my discussions with Kip about this, I think that the main issue with Ku is that it's difficult to maintain a constant width blade road when the knife tapers as much as Kip's blades do (you have to constantly adjust the angle of the blade road as you go down the length of the blade).
     
  21. Oct 16, 2018 at 1:40 AM #111

    Kippington

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    Yeah I tried it at one stage and it didn't work out with the way I taper the spine on my blades. As Nemo recalls, it has a lot to do with this shape of shinogi looking wrong... even though it's fine.
    KU would look really odd on this grind:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    You simply can't taper a blade like this without making a KU blade look like crap.
    I have similar problems with low layer pattern-welded steel and san-mai construction.
     
  22. Oct 16, 2018 at 1:46 AM #112

    panda

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    what if you did faux ku after grind like that blueing stuff that jon does for ku rehab?
     
  23. Oct 16, 2018 at 1:52 AM #113

    Kippington

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    That wouldn't be a bad idea, but I'd need to look into the chemicals. Got any leads? :p
     
  24. Oct 16, 2018 at 2:18 AM #114

    McMan

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  25. Oct 16, 2018 at 2:34 AM #115

    Jville

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    Kip's knifes do have really great taper, probably as good, if not the best, as any I've used
     
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  26. Oct 16, 2018 at 3:42 AM #116

    Nemo

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    This is also my experience.
     
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  27. Oct 16, 2018 at 5:22 AM #117

    panda

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    i want to see someone try the gunblack!
     
  28. Oct 16, 2018 at 6:02 AM #118

    Nemo

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    Not sure if it's even an issue but is gun black/ blue known to be food safe?
     
  29. Oct 16, 2018 at 6:31 AM #119

    Barmoley

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    The blue is patina/rust process so should be.
     
  30. Oct 16, 2018 at 6:37 AM #120

    Nemo

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    Is it just an acid?
     

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