Forced Patina ?

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by Random, Dec 9, 2019.

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums by donating:

  1. Dec 9, 2019 #1

    Random

    Random

    Random

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    East
    I have been researching forced patina, but ran across this Cooks Illustrated article:

    "We tried one method: soaking the blade in vinegar (a low pH environment favors the production of magnetite) and then washing and wiping it dry. The approach gave the knife a matte, grippy finish that created undesirable drag in food, and more important, the blade ended up rusting more easily." Link

    Thoughts?

    I'm wondering how forcing patina would affect highly polished blades?
     
  2. Dec 9, 2019 #2

    panda

    panda

    panda

    O.G. Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    6,604
    Location:
    south florida
    best way to force patina is by making a HUGE batch of onion soup. forced patina sounds good in theory but not so great in reality. the added drag is a major damper in performance.
     
    lemeneid likes this.
  3. Dec 9, 2019 #3

    HSC /// Knives

    HSC /// Knives

    HSC /// Knives

    Professional Craftsman

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    217
    Location:
    Clarkdale AZ
    hmmm, I think the devil is in the details... The article casually mentions their experience, but any number of details of the patina can affect the performance. Several makers use a mustard type forced patina (I'm guessing successfully)

    I just recently did a dew 52100 knives with forced patina. I reached out to a recent customer of one who is a member chef here, will let you know what he says.

    [​IMG]
     
    ChefShramrock and Gjackson98 like this.
  4. Dec 9, 2019 #4

    Random

    Random

    Random

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    East
    Submitted for your viewing pleasure:

     
  5. Dec 9, 2019 #5

    Gjackson98

    Gjackson98

    Gjackson98

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,178
    Location:
    Ohio, US
    What he said.

    When I first got started with carbon blades I have tried all different type of etching, forcing patina ish methods.

    The first attempt was terrible, Timing is another key when using vinegar or mustard. I left the mustard and vinegar on the blade for too long end up causing rust reaction.

    After clean up the blade, my second attempt was fairly successful. My avatar icon photo was the result.

    At the end cooking is probably the most natural way with best results, cut some cooked chicken meat you will be all good.
     
  6. Dec 9, 2019 #6

    Random

    Random

    Random

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    East
    FYI, this is what I an hoping to achieve.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Dec 9, 2019 #7

    ian

    ian

    ian

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,230
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I was interested in forced patinas at first, but nowadays I think they always look, well, forced. It’s like someone was trying way too hard to impress someone at a party. Beauty to me is a deep natural patina gotten from actual use. Maybe because they build more gradually over time, they always seem to leave a super smooth and slick surface that just glides through food. I can’t remember what forced patinas feel like at this point, but having them be rougher makes sense to me. It’s like a very low grade etch, and if you’ve ever tried to use a knife right after etching, you’ll quickly realize that the finish is super grippy.
     
  8. Dec 9, 2019 #8

    Random

    Random

    Random

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    East
    After searching for "forced patina" on YouTube, I came to the conclusion that is what most are trying to do. Modern art for knives.
     
  9. Dec 9, 2019 #9

    captaincaed

    captaincaed

    captaincaed

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    604
    One suggestion I got from a European maker (who will remain unnamed to protect the innocent) was concentrated instant coffee. Anyone tried this?
     
  10. Dec 9, 2019 #10

    Random

    Random

    Random

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    East
    I saw this done in a YT video. A slow process, about 6-8 hours as I recall, but seemed to give good uniform results.
     
  11. Dec 9, 2019 #11

    Barmoley

    Barmoley

    Barmoley

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,514
    I was told that Xerxes Primus is finished like that, coffee patina. The finish is very uniform grey on SC125, looks good and doesn't seem to increase drag. I don't have proof of it being the case, but sounded reasonable.
     
  12. Dec 9, 2019 #12

    mise_en_place

    mise_en_place

    mise_en_place

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2014
    Messages:
    536
    I'm not a fan of doing forced patinas myself. When I messed around with them in the past they have definitely added a little drag. I think it's one of those things people will try once, regardless of what others advise.

    I've seen some nice examples from Bloodroot and HSC /// but can't speak to the performance effects.
     
  13. Dec 9, 2019 #13

    NO ChoP!

    NO ChoP!

    NO ChoP!

    Old Head

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    2,445
    Location:
    North Carolina
    After washing the blade take some 0000 wool or high grit paper. It will leave most of the patina, but smooth it out a ton.

    For me, I either break down a tub of fish, or carve some warm red meat with new carbon knives. Both result in sexy natural colors.
     
  14. Dec 9, 2019 #14

    mise_en_place

    mise_en_place

    mise_en_place

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2014
    Messages:
    536
    Thanks for the tip
     
  15. Dec 9, 2019 #15

    Dave Martell

    Dave Martell

    Dave Martell

    Forum Founder Professional Craftsman

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    13,831
    Location:
    Airville, PA
    To reduce drag (post forced patina) you need to either buff or lightly hand sand (using very fine grit sandpaper) the blade. If you leave it raw etched it'll suck to everything badly.
     
    captaincaed and Nikabrik like this.
  16. Dec 9, 2019 #16

    krx927

    krx927

    krx927

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Messages:
    868
    As others are saying best to get natural patina. Unfortunately this will not work with all knives. Some are just too reactive and there is no fun in cutting onions which are getting brown as you are cutting them.

    Sometimes you need to force patina. For me the best way is to cut cooked meat. This gives you beautiful patina full of blue/violet colours without any drag.

    When I do not plan to roast a lot of meat I cook some chicken breast slightly underdone. Then you just cut a few slices and you rub the whole blade with them. You leave it for 5 mins a, rinse and repeat a few times.
    You will get beautiful patina that causes no drag.
     
  17. Dec 9, 2019 #17

    captaincaed

    captaincaed

    captaincaed

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    604
    Make a roast, sword in the stone, wait 8" for meat to rest. Profit.
     
  18. Dec 9, 2019 #18

    McMan

    McMan

    McMan

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2018
    Messages:
    986
    Where's the patina?
     
  19. Dec 9, 2019 #19

    captaincaed

    captaincaed

    captaincaed

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    604
    This is a good tip.
    While we have you, any thoughts on good/bad finish texture/grit for bare metal, taking slicing and food release into consideration? I've heard 2k stone finish can be good, unsure how it translates to the sandpaper scale.
     
  20. Dec 10, 2019 #20

    HSC /// Knives

    HSC /// Knives

    HSC /// Knives

    Professional Craftsman

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    217
    Location:
    Clarkdale AZ
    so the customer who has my 52100 patina knife has two other 52100 as well
    he reports - I don't think the [forced] patina had any effect whatsoever on the performance of the knife whether positive or negative...
     
    mise_en_place likes this.
  21. Dec 10, 2019 #21

    Dave Martell

    Dave Martell

    Dave Martell

    Forum Founder Professional Craftsman

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    13,831
    Location:
    Airville, PA
    Seems like a level of finish that's neither too coarse nor too fine fits the bill for decent food release.
     
  22. Dec 10, 2019 #22

    captaincaed

    captaincaed

    captaincaed

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    604
    Cheers. Realize that was a vague way to ask
     
  23. Dec 11, 2019 #23

    Kippington

    Kippington

    Kippington

    A small green parrot Hobbyist Craftsman

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,009
    Location:
    Melb, Australia
    I like to etch honyaki in white vinegar in much the same way as the review in OP's post, but I subsequently remove the grippy matte finish it leaves behind with extra polishing steps. Not sure it would work the same way on monosteel.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bym1dy4HqEq

    I've tried mustard forced patinas in the past. I couldn't get over the metallic taste it imparted on the food.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  24. Dec 12, 2019 #24

    stringer

    stringer

    stringer

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    My recipe for a new knife or after thinning a highly reactive knife is onions and cooked meat like mentioned previously. Leave the knife for a while and then rinse with hot hot water. Purple ingredients help a lot. And it's pomegranate season. Slicing beets. Cooked or raw red cabbage. It will look pink at first but as it mellows it will take on a nice deep gray color that will be stable so you don't have to baby it. This one is 52100 but it works for my iron clad Watanabe, monosteel white 2 gingas, and vintage French carbons just as well.

    IMG_20191212_082029.jpg
     

Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page