FREEHAND vs. SHARPENING SYSTEM

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Thoughts on freehand vs. a system?

I get consistent results with a system. Generally less abuse to the knife.

I go longer between sharpenings and revive edges w/ freehand stroppings.

I freehand as well, but only for “fun” and to improve my technique at it. I still feel I get better results on one of my systems

Thoughts?


I use various systems:
TSProf
WickedEdge
EdgePro
Tormek
 
I used a guided system for years (prior to my foray into Japanese knives).

I don't get the comment about less abuse to the knife.

I don't know why you would go longer with a guided system than freehand other than proficiency of your technique.

Guided systems have some advantages but I feel their drawbacks far outweigh them.
 
Thanks for the reply.

My “less abuse on the knife” comment was directed at the ability to exactly replicate an edge with minimum metal removal.

Many systems provide the ability to keep a record of various settings so it can be repeated in subsequent sharpenings. The result is very minimal metal removal and ability to exactly match angles when changing stones.
 
I think my Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener is much faster to achieve a sharp edge with. With 30 kitchen knives sharpening by hand, I could not keep up with sharpening. No problem with the Worksharp keeping 30 kitchen knives sharp. Edge wise they both cut well if done right.

The Worksharp is probably easier to learn than sharpening by hand. But there is still a learning curve.
 
There is an opinion by some that because you have more control with a guided system you could hit the very edge and thus remove less metal and in general stress the edge less. This leads to longer lasting edges. We've argued this before that especially for high wear resistant steels guided system might provide longer lasting edges. The other side of it is that free handed sharpening produces convex edges that are more durable if maybe a little less sharp in absolute terms. Also thinning needs to be done free hand since it would be very difficult with a guided system.
 
Disclaimer - I've never used a system, so frankly my opinions probably mean f all, but...

When I get asked by customers about recommendations for sharpening, stones &c. I tend to advise freehanding, for a few reasons on top of not knowing about jigs n stuff:

- Slightly cheaper initial setup. When I tell people they just need to spend $30 on a King 1.2 / Cerax Combi and everything will be fine - they tend to be rather relieved.

- Easier to repair a knife and just general versatility. I sell Japanese knives, mostly to people who haven't had one before. And they often treat them like cheap Western knives.

- Freehanding isn't that difficult. This is the real kicker - it's incredibly simple to make a knife as sharp as you'll reasonably need it. And anyone can get there after maybe half an hour practice I guess. After that you can start playing around and getting geeky if you want, or not. The main reason I've never tried a system is that I just can't imagine the point.
 
I assume you mean freehand on stones not on belts. I have no idea which edge would last longer. It is nothing I have thought about. And once I sharpened a knife on my Worksharp and realized how fast I could do it. I never sharpened by hand again. So, comparing which edge would last longer made no difference to me. I was going to use the Worksharp. It only takes me minutes to sharpen a kitchen knife.
 
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I assume you mean freehand on stones not on belts. I have no idea which edge would last longer. It is nothing I have thought about. And once I sharpened a knife on my Worksharp and realized how fast I could do it. I never sharpened by hand again. So, comparing which edge would last longer made no difference to me. I was going to use the Worksharp. It only takes me minutes to sharpen a kitchen knife.


I am reassured you have positive results w/ Ken Onion Worksharp. I have been concerned about trying one because of my perceived belief it is impossible toset edges accurately.

All of my systems have spot on accuracy and repeatability.

WickedEdge, TSOP K03, and EdgePro take some time to setup and sharpen on so they are not great for volume and multiple blades.

The same is sort of true for my TORMEK T-8. The Tormek is a water cooled
electric wheel stone and a leather strop. Also very accurate and repeatable. The power (like Worksharp) is great for volume as fatigue is not a factor when doing long sessions.

BTW - you were correct in your assumption that I was not speaking to belt sanders.
 
Do you know rope cutting contests in russia? There is some knowledge about guided sharpening and high alloy steels. There is a member on a german forum, with connections to that guys.

He checked a micro chipping Kato (or shig?) shirogami from another member. After sharpening the chipping went on. The point was how micro chipping creeps up over the edge, and how to detect and repair. Compromised material removed and sharpened on his Bogdan closeups of the edge looked good, after hundred meals.

It looks like the combination of knowledge and guides allows significant longer lasting edges. But I always get stuck in automatic translation.
 
I have a Tormek T8 system c/w a 4000 grit “Japanese” water stone. I use it to sharpen German steel and cheap stainless blades. For blades made from better quality steel I hand sharpen exclusively on a variety of stones. The Tormek gives adequate results quickly. Better quality steel talks to me in a way that rewards the attention possible hand sharpening. IMO using the Tormek on a better quality blade is like using a sledge hammer to drive home a finishing nail. I haven’t use other sharpening systems and am open to the possibility that they may provide an adequate edge more quickly than hand sharpening but to me hand sharpening is part of the pleasure of owning and using a fine blade.
 
I think if we’re purely talking keen, perfectly consistent edges, systems may be able to do a more accurate job if you’re not a freehand master. I can get my edges sharp, but I know I’m not perfectly hitting the apex at the right angle every time. My assumption is that I would be able to do so, or at least get closer, with a guided system.

If we’re talking more than just the edge, eg. geometry, thinning, profile editing, fixing etc etc then the versatility of freehand is undeniable. What use is a super sharp edge if bte it’s all chunky and thick? All the steps and adjustments involved in convexing seems like a nightmare with a system.. not that I can do it freehand, but at least I don’t have to adjust a machine. How would you blend??

I might never want use a system because I enjoy screwing around more than I enjoy HHT4 edges, and to be able to pop a stone off the shelf and go to town sounds funner to me than setting up something with hinges and bars and small sticks of stones. On the other hand, I’m not sharpening 30 knives in a day.. more like 3, if I’m lucky and have time to do a good job.
 
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There is an opinion by some that because you have more control with a guided system you could hit the very edge and thus remove less metal and in general stress the edge less. This leads to longer lasting edges. We've argued this before that especially for high wear resistant steels guided system might provide longer lasting edges. The other side of it is that free handed sharpening produces convex edges that are more durable if maybe a little less sharp in absolute terms. Also thinning needs to be done free hand since it would be very difficult with a guided system.
+1, best post
 
For kitchen knives, free hand is more of an all inclusive procedure. You do some variable geometry work, some thinning, some quick pressure zone management, some microbevel, some convexity and so on and so forth. Lots of things going on that in the end and on the long run, are better performance wise.
 
Honestly, I hardly spend more time than like 15 minutes sharpening and that is when I bring out the stones which then makes me take more than just the knife that needs it to the stones.

Last time I sharpened the Dalman I did just that one, took about 7 minutes....the setup of the lansky set I used long ago (diamond) on my global knives took longer, hands on stone has something a sharpening system lack, I guess it;s tactile feedback...
 
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I think my Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener is much faster to achieve a sharp edge with. With 30 kitchen knives sharpening by hand, I could not keep up with sharpening. No problem with the Worksharp keeping 30 kitchen knives sharp. Edge wise they both cut well if done right.

The Worksharp is probably easier to learn than sharpening by hand. But there is still a learning curve.
Is the Ken Onion variable speed? If yes, what is the slowest SF/M? If no, what is the SF/M?
 
For people that like to sharpen there is no reason not to spend hours sharpening knives.
Not sure if you're referring to system or free hand sharpening. Full hand sharpening of a well maintained knife, starting by thinning behind the edge on a 320 stone, and ending by deburring on Belgian Blue and the full progression in between, can be performed withing 20 minutes. No time in building up any system. A strange knife, severely neglected, may need much more, think heavy thinning and repairs as a reverse belly and a protruding fingerguard. Touching-up a well-known knife is done within minutes: a few strokes on the finest stone, perhaps occasionaly starting with the one before.
 
For me it is the bond between my hands and the knife, creating the edge myself, feeling the steel, thinning slightly with every touch up. As a home cook, this only happens every 4-6 months. But I can get out the stones, soak them and touch up 4 or 5 knives in under 45 minutes. When I have edges on them, those edges are mine and mine alone.
 
I remember from discussions here about wire edges they are much more likely to occur with jig systems as those work with a fixed angle, and a hand sharpener will adapt his angle in function of what he feels and hears to make sure he reaches the very edge and doesn't stay behind it.
 
And you can't sharpen different parts of the knife differently. I thin the tips of my knives every time I sharpen. I also thicken the angle at the heel every time I sharpen to make it tougher. In the middle section of the knife I blend it together. You can't do that with a jig.

Amazing information! (really … no sarcasm)
 
I have a Tormek T8 system c/w a 4000 grit “Japanese” water stone. I use it to sharpen German steel and cheap stainless blades. For blades made from better quality steel I hand sharpen exclusively on a variety of stones. The Tormek gives adequate results quickly. Better quality steel talks to me in a way that rewards the attention possible hand sharpening. IMO using the Tormek on a better quality blade is like using a sledge hammer to drive home a finishing nail. I haven’t use other sharpening systems and am open to the possibility that they may provide an adequate edge more quickly than hand sharpening but to me hand sharpening is part of the pleasure of owning and using a fine blade.

I agree with you re your comments on TORMEK.

I found a use when doing multiple knives. Also as a starting point to get a knife into the ballpark of where I want it. Then I switch to either a
manual system or a freehand finish.
 
I have a Tormek T8 system c/w a 4000 grit “Japanese” water stone. I use it to sharpen German steel and cheap stainless blades. For blades made from better quality steel I hand sharpen exclusively on a variety of stones. The Tormek gives adequate results quickly. Better quality steel talks to me in a way that rewards the attention possible hand sharpening. IMO using the Tormek on a better quality blade is like using a sledge hammer to drive home a finishing nail. I haven’t use other sharpening systems and am open to the possibility that they may provide an adequate edge more quickly than hand sharpening but to me hand sharpening is part of the pleasure of owning and using a fine blade.

Freehanding a high-end blade makes me nervous. I don’t yet have as much confidence as I’d like, as much muscle memory as I’d like, and do not yet achieve the consistently good results I’d like.

Hence, I tend to limit my hand sharpening to lesser knives.
 
Freehanding a high-end blade makes me nervous. I don’t yet have as much confidence as I’d like, as much muscle memory as I’d like, and do not yet achieve the consistently good results I’d like.

Hence, I tend to limit my hand sharpening to lesser knives.
There's always the rabbit hole of different knife finishes.

But practice makes nearing but never achieving perfection.
 
Most every method works well if you know what you’re doing and are consistent. As with all things knife related it’s a compromise- every method has advantages and disadvantages and different pitfalls and dangers and learning curves. And costs. As long as you’re happy, and competent with your method, knives get sharp and food gets cut. I don’t think any method is “better” than the other, there are just people who do it with care, knowledge, and skill, and there are people who do it without any of those things.

For me, I started down this serious sharpening rabbit hole about 5 years ago when I was running kitchens and had a bunch of cooks with a bunch of dull ass knives. I looked at from the perspective of speed and utility and volume. Before that I had always managed my own knives with whatever greasy dished out stone happened to be around, Boy Scout style, and a diamond rod, and was mostly sharp and satisfied. Anyway, over the next few months I got a worksharp, a kme fixed angle, a 1x30, and some diamond and synthetic stones. I used them all and had very good results with them all. I found stones to be my favorite, and found it to be very personally rewarding and even meditative. I have always valued simplicity, and it doesn’t get much simpler that water, stone, metal. Now at almost 2 years sharpening professionally in the shop, almost exclusively on stones, I’ve been starting to explore different equipment options for volume sharpening of lower quality knives. I still haven’t landed on a final solution, and expect I will probably just keep experimenting for another 20 years, but I think good quality knives will always go to the stones.

anyway that’s a long way to get back to the point, which is they all have pros and cons. In my experience, to achieve excellent results it stacks up like this-

Belts- (anything from a worksharp to a 2x72) definitely the fastest, and easiest to screw up badly, but with good technique very consistent results both in a high level of sharpness and aesthetically. Pretty easy to achieve both crisp flat bevels or convexed. Dangers are overheating the steel, removing too much material, metal in your eyeballs. Other cons- equipment and belt costs, dust management, burr management, kind of boring work. Also noise.

Stones- medium fastness, easiest set up, lowest cost, little danger of damaging the knife irreparably, meditative, excellent quality of edge and aesthetics with good technique. Cons- its the hardest to be really good at and requires a lot of practice to consistently achieve high level results, physically taxing at volume, you will probably want to buy too many stones, and you will most definitely bleed. Also dirty fingernails.

Fixed angle systems- consistent* results, great edges and flat bevels, excellent aesthetics. Especially good for smaller blades. Negatives- the slowest, lots of set up, often expensive, huge angle discrepancy on larger knives. *the problem with say they’re consistent is that if you don’t set up the knife exactly in the same spot as the last time then you basically have to cut in a new edge geometry every time and I don’t know how you can track that.

of course I haven’t used many of the higher end systems, so I could be missing some stuff. I wouldn’t mind playing around with a wicked edge sometime, or having one around the shop for pocket knives and the like, but I have definitely used a number of knives sharpened on one, and they were pretty spectacular.
 
Thoughts?

The dominant 'culture' in KKF is freehand - so there will be a bias towards that method (indeed, it is my preference).

I agree with the points made so far. Rather obviously, jigs work best when you operate within their design assumptions. That is: working at a fixed angle on a 'typical' knife. They can do this really well! But therein lies the catch. As mentioned already, the most commonly violated design assumption is that you should use one fixed angle. For a kitchen knife you might choose to use multiple angles in multiple places! Granted, you can run multiple angles on jigs... but it makes them more cumbersome. Other more niche assumption violations that havent been mentioned:
  • Sharpening single bevel knives on jigs is probably ill-advised
  • Sharpening a chinese cleaver would be impossible or awkward
  • Sharpening a really long slicer would be fiddly
  • I think I have read that bolsters and finger guards can get in the way of some jigs
To be fair... Jigs arent really designed to solve these problems... nor thinning... nor convexing... etc...


These questions pop up every so often. It is hard generate new angles to the discussion. I don't mean to be discouraging! Even old conversations can be good :) Given you have used quite a few systems:

TSProf
WickedEdge
EdgePro
Tormek

a mini review comparing them would be pretty interesting for the forum (I think??). Personally, I had no idea what a TSProf was! I looked it up and it seems like a really well (over?) engineered tool.

Sharp is better than dull. It doesn't matter how you got there if you are happy ;)


(Edit: I have never sharpened scissors. I imagine using a jig for barber scissors is probably the best choice? But perhaps there is a salonscissorsforums.com somewhere out there where they are full of freehand braggadocio? 😂)
 
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