Gift for a (very) good friend

[Valinski]

Hey all,

a few days ago I started searching for a nice knife which I want to gift to a very good friend for christmas. But I soon came to the conclusion that I am lost without some help.

LOCATION
Austria

KNIFE TYPE
chef's knife, Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
right handed
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
japanese
What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
~24
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
no
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
1000$

I cant't really answer the rest of the questionaire, but my friend would use the knife at home and it should be some kind of an "allrounder". She owns a variety of German brand knives but always talks about using a certain Japanese knife once (AOKI), so I'd like to get her one for herself. A somewhat traditional style is preferred as she doesn't like Miyabi and suchlike. Also the aspect of real craftsmanship is of importance.

Looking forward to your suggestions and input!

 

[Michi]

Looking forward to your suggestions and input!

Tough question to answer because knives are such personal things. It doesn't sound like your friend is familiar with Japanese knives. Keep in mind that this will require a little bit of education on her part. Throwing the knife into a drawer is not an option; it will have to live in a knife block or on a magnetic holder. (Alternatively, for a stainless knife, a Saya to protect the blade would make a fine addition.)

Also, she can't use a honing steel with a Japanese knife. She will either have to learn how to sharpen on stones or have the knife sharpened for her periodically. (Finding people who can sharpen a high-quality Japanese knife without ruining it is not easy.)

Best option would probably be to send it off to japaneseknifeimports.com for sharpening, or to another Japanese knife shop with a sharpening service and good reputation. Absolutely not a bad idea to get some input from Jon (owner of that shop), too. He is renowned for providing solid and good advice.

I would suggest a knife for her that stays away from the extremes. Not super-light, not super-heavy. A middle-weight at 180–220 grams is probably a reasonable compromise. Similarly for the grind. Not a laser (super-thin and fragile), and not a workhorse (thick and strong behind the edge).

For the steel, I would strongly recommend something with a stainless (or near stainless) blade, and stainless cladding. That is unless your friend enjoys obsessively wiping the blade after each cut and, having forgotten to do that even once after cutting a lemon, watching the beautiful red rust spots that form in less than five minutes…

So, that means a reasonably rust-resistant steel, such as SLD, R2, SG-2, or Swedish stainless, among others. (In a pinch, Aogami Super would work work too. It's not as reactive as pure carbon steel, but you still have to make sure you wipe the blade after use. Leaving it wet on the counter is a bad idea.)

Whether you go for something plain, or damascus, or kurouchi (black colour on the top half of the blade), or hammered with dimples (tsuchime) is largely a matter of aesthetics. Pick what you think she would like.

These are general guidelines that I think will be helpful. Rather than me recommending a specific knife, if at all possible, I suggest you take your friend to a good knife merchant, get some advice there, and give her a chance to handle and feel different knives. Knives are very personal things, and individual preferences for profile, handle shape and size, balance point, and so on play a big role. A knife that's the bees knees to one person may be only "so-so" to another person. The best chance to get her a knife that she will enjoy is to let her pick it.

And, despite the above suggestion, here is one option (out of hundreds) that would make for a very nice up-market first knife:

http://www.knivesandstones.com/sukenari-sg2-r2-gyuto-240mm-damascus/

 

[M1k3]

Not to mention Wa or Yo. On the softer or harder side with the steel. Lots of flat spot or a nearly continuous curve profile. Tall, medium or short height? And such a high budget leaves LOTS of options.

 

[M1k3]

Even just telling us "Something pretty and stainless" would narrow down the options.

 

[Qapla']

Regarding "Aoki", Aoki Hamono is the company that makes the various Sakai Takayuki knives.

Is that truly USD 1000? At that price point you're looking at anything and everything short of the most extreme of art-knives. And you wouldn't be limited only to Japanese ones; you could probably contact some local custom makers too.

 

[nonoyes]

Isn't there at least one custom maker in Vienna with very pretty knives? Don't remember the name. You could treat your friend to a (possible) road trip + immersive knife buying experience.

Also Jürgen shanz.

Try the shop Lorenzi. It's a small but knowledgeable shop in Vienna and I think they carry local custom made knives.

And Japan-Messer-shop sometimes has hand-crafted knives in stock, give them a shout.

Good luck.

 

[Matus]

Given what you have told us and the generous budget, I would pice some nicely made, mid-weight Japanese made gyuto. Maybe something like a Toyama, Ittetsu, Kagekiyo, Hide or maybe Munetoshi honyaki (but there are of course many other knives). But I do think you would do best to talk to vendors - I would start with Jon of JapaneseKnifeImports - he is super knowledgeable (well beyond his own offerings) and super nice and helpful. Especially since you do not have experience with JP knives it would make sense to talk to someone like him.

 

[Valinski]

Thank you all for the input, I really appreciate your help!
Big Big thanks to Michi for the detailed guidelines.

I definitely understand the aspect of trying the knife beforehand, but if somehow possible I'd like to keep it a surprise. Regarding the aesthetics, there is something special about the "simplicity" of a traditional japanese knife, so there isn't an urgent need for a super special looking custom made one if I can find a nice hand-forged one.

I would pice some nicely made, mid-weight Japanese made gyuto

That sounds really good. I took a look at the Japan-Messer-shop (thanks for the tip @nonoyes) and found an AOKI Aogami 2 Warikomi Wa Gyuto 24cm and an AOKI Gingami 3 Exklusiv Suminagashi Gyuto 24cm. Both look awesome, any opinions on these two? I also came across a Sukenari (佑成) HAP40 HSPS Damascus Gyoto with Corian handle; a Sukenari ZDP-189 Damascus Gyuto 240mm Special Edition, Triple Spacer Ebony Handle with White Corian Ferrule and a K&S SPECIAL Jikko Honyaki Gyuto 210mm by Kenichi Shiraki Ringed Gidgee Handle SP2 and a Hagane Damascus Blackclouds Gyuto 210m which all look a bit mor extravagant.

I surely am slayed by the variety (not to mention the types of steel), but after browsing a few hours these are the ones that caught my eye.

 

[Michi]

I surely am slayed by the variety (not to mention the types of steel), but after browsing a few hours these are the ones that caught my eye.

I would stay away from ZDP-189 and HAP40. These are extreme steels, very, very hard (67–68), quite brittle, and they tend to chip more easily than more mainstream steels. Something like Aogami or Gingami will be more forgiving, and hold its edge nearly as long.

I very much like the Gingami Gyuto you mentioned. That is a very nice knife and probably a near-perfect choice for someone new. And it's a knife that many people would love to own, definitely not a beginner model. The added benefit is that it is stainless, which makes the knife much less of a hassle to use.

The Jikko Honyaki is a true collector's knife, way up there in price and artistry. Most people will never own a knife as exclusive as this. I have to warn you though: this knife literally will require wiping down after just about every cut because it is made of white #2 steel, which starts to rust as soon as the neighbours open the tap on their sink. Also, the mirror finish will not last long, unless you are super-careful with the knife; it will develop a patina in short order and look nowhere near as impressive, unless you endlessly polish it after every use. And sharpening and thinning a knife such as this is something I would only have done by an expert, because of the risk of marring the finish.

My take on the Honyaki is that it is strictly a collector's and expert-level knife. I would not recommend giving this someone who has little or no experience with Japanese knives. You might well be doing them a disservice.

The Blackclouds Gyuto also looks like a fine choice. SLD is a really good steel, fairly easy to sharpen, and it won't rust. (Nothing is perfectly stainless, but SLD comes close, and you'd have to treat it really badly to get it to rust.)

So, of the ones you listed, the Gingami and SLD knives both look great. They will perform beautifully and, more importantly, they are suitable for someone new to Japanese knives. They'll also be more durable than ZDP-189 or HAP40 if used with less-than-perfect cutting technique, and, being pragmatic, the stainless steel will make them more fun to use because there won't be the constant pressure on your friend to keep wiping and drying the blade.

Note that the main difference between the two is their weight. At 287 g, for a Japanese knife, the Gingami is quite heavy and, at 169 g, the SLD one is quite light. If your friend prefers hefty knives (287 g is definitely near the upper end in terms of weight), go for the Gingami. But, seeing that she is a woman, she may have a preference for the lighter SLD. For reference, a 20 cm Wüsthof Classic chef's knife weighs about 240 g, and a 24 cm one weighs about 280 g.

 

[ian]

Just for context, I would say @Michi’s description of how rust-prone white #2 is is a bit exaggerated. It’ll probably rust if you don’t care for it properly, but I have a couple of white #2 knives and they’re both totally fine as long as you don’t leave them wet and/or caked with food for more than a few minutes. And once you’ve built up a patina, they’re even less sensitive. The iron cladding on mine is more of an issue than the core steel, which I’ve never seen rust. That said, I’d never buy a carbon knife for someone if I didn’t know for sure that they’d take care of it properly (wash and wipe it down carefully after finishing with it, make sure pieces of onions aren’t stuck to the blade too often during use, etc...).

 

[MrHiggins]

I hate to have to disagree with the esteemed Michi, but I wouldn't turn away from HAP40. I've owned (and really loved) a Sukenari HAP40 and it was much less fragile than a few others I've had. The knife is working in a Japanese restaurant in Napa now, and my buddy (the chef) can't say enough good things about it.

I think something from Sukenari is your perfect choice here, either HAP40 or R2. They're beautiful, a perfect blend between rustic and refined, middle-of-the-road grind (thin, but not too thin), the profile is equally middle-of-the-road with a gentle belly and a short flat spot at the end. Anyone getting a Sukenari HAP40 as a gift would be overjoyed to get it.

 

[Michi]

That said, I’d never buy a carbon knife for someone if I didn’t know for sure that they’d take care of it properly (wash and wipe it down carefully after finishing with it, make sure pieces of onions aren’t stuck to the blade too often during use, etc...).

Exactly. And never, ever, leave it on the bench with a few spots of onion or lemon juice on it because the phone rang or the postman appeared at the front door and you got distracted for a few minutes.

The reason Japanese chefs wipe their blades after just about every cut isn't that they are obsessive-compulsives, but that they don't want their knives to rust or get a patina. So, I have to disagree here. By a normal (not Japanese knife aficionado) person's standards, white #2 rusts just about instantly. I have three white #2 knives myself, which I do enjoy using. And because I know how they behave, I don't consider them a good choice for someone new to Japanese knives (a person who has spent many years with a Wüsthof mindset).

A white #2 might be a fine choice as a second or third knife. But, for the first one, I'd definitely recommend stainless or near-stainless.

 

[Michi]

I think something from Sukenari is your perfect choice here, either HAP40 or R2.

I'd go for the R2 rather than the HAP40. Hellishly sharp, good edge retention, and more robust than a HAP40.

Anyone getting a Sukenari HAP40 as a gift would be overjoyed to get it.

Sukenari make great knives, and they are beautiful. Definitely a fantastic gift for someone. In R2

 

[ian]

Exactly. And never, ever, leave it on the bench with a few spots of onion or lemon juice on it because the phone rang or the postman appeared at front door and you got distracted for a few minutes.

The reason Japanese chefs wipe their blades after just about every cut isn't that they are obsessive-compulsives, but that they don't want their knives to rust or get a patina. So, I have to disagree here. By a normal (not Japanese knife aficionado) person's standards, white #2 rusts just about instantly. I have three white #2 knives myself, which I do enjoy using. And because I know how they behave, I don't consider them a good choice for someone new to Japanese knives (a person who has spent many years with a Wüsthof mindset).

A white #2 might be a fine choice as a second or third knife. But, for the first one, I'd definitely recommend stainless or near-stainless.

Totally. It’s just that sometimes when I’m talking to normal people and want to play up the mystique of carbon, I’ll say things like “you have to wipe the knife down with a wet towel after every cut and wash the knife immediately”, and while there’s a bit of truth to this, it’s not entirely accurate, and makes the knife sound a lot more high maintenance than it really is. I mean, I’ll brush onions off the knife with my fingers after I’m done cutting them all, but that’s hardly wiping it down with a towel after every cut. I just feel like it's possible to warn people off carbon without exaggerating the upkeep. Probably I'm just griping about it here to make myself feel better about my own exaggerations when I try to impress my friends, though....

 

[MrHiggins]

I'd go for the R2 rather than the HAP40. Hellishly sharp, good edge retention, and more robust than a HAP40.

Sukenari make great knives, and they are beautiful. Definitely a fantastic gift for someone. In R2

Were you abused by HAP40 steel in your childhood, Michi? [emoji6] You seem to really have an aversion to it.

Have you actually had bad experiences with it as a knife steel? I thought it was a great steel and I never chipped it once. I can't say that about all steels. For example, I had a Blue No. 1 that looked like a bread knife after cutting a small amount of merepoix.

 

[Michi]

Were you abused by HAP40 steel in your childhood, Michi? [emoji6] You seem to really have an aversion to it.

No not really. As a matter of fact, I have a Sukenari HAP40 on order. HAP40 is a nice steel. It's also the most extreme of all possible steels for a Japanese knife. Is that really the right steel to recommend to someone with no experience as their first Japanese knife?

Have you actually had bad experiences with it as a knife steel? I thought it was a great steel and I never chipped it once. I can't say that about all steels. For example, I had a Blue No. 1 that looked like a bread knife after cutting a small amount of merepoix.

I've used ZDP-189 a fair bit, and HAP40 once, briefly (after receiving a warning about careful handling). I know that ZDP-189 is prone to chipping if used carelessly. By all accounts, HAP40 is a little less prone to chipping. But, at 68 HRC, I'm pretty certain that it won't be as forgiving as, say, Aogami or SG-2.

It's simply that I'm not convinced that this is the right steel for someone who doesn't have prior experience with more "normal" Japanese knives.

 

[MrHiggins]

No not really. As a matter of fact, I have a Sukenari HAP40 on order. HAP40 is a nice steel. It's also the most extreme of all possible steels for a Japanese knife. Is that really the right steel to recommend to someone with no experience as their first Japanese knife?


I've used ZDP-189 a fair bit, and HAP40 once, briefly (after receiving a warning about careful handling). I know that ZDP-189 is prone to chipping if used carelessly. By all accounts, HAP40 is a little less prone to chipping. But, at 68 HRC, I'm pretty certain that it won't be as forgiving as, say, Aogami or SG-2.

It's simply that I'm not convinced that this is the right steel for someone who doesn't have prior experience with more "normal" Japanese knives.

Fair enough. The Sukenari hap40 was my first Japanese knife and I had no problems, and I may have just gotten lucky (or Sukenari does an exceptional heat treat on hap40, where other makers may not?). It's definitely true that the steel has a reputation for brittleness, I just never saw it personally.

 

[Michi]

The Sukenari hap40 was my first Japanese knife and I had no problems, and I may have just gotten lucky

Or you may have better technique than most people who have used soft-steel knives for years

 

[MrHiggins]

Or you may have better technique than most people who have used soft-steel knives for years

I am a knife God among men! [emoji39]

Anyway, let us know when you get your Sukenari hap40. I suspect you'll really like it.

 

[Barmoley]

No not really. As a matter of fact, I have a Sukenari HAP40 on order. HAP40 is a nice steel. It's also the most extreme of all possible steels for a Japanese knife. Is that really the right steel to recommend to someone with no experience as their first Japanese knife?


I've used ZDP-189 a fair bit, and HAP40 once, briefly (after receiving a warning about careful handling). I know that ZDP-189 is prone to chipping if used carelessly. By all accounts, HAP40 is a little less prone to chipping. But, at 68 HRC, I'm pretty certain that it won't be as forgiving as, say, Aogami or SG-2.

It's simply that I'm not convinced that this is the right steel for someone who doesn't have prior experience with more "normal" Japanese knives.

I am with @MrHiggins on this one regarding hap40, in my experience it has been pretty tough even at high hardness. It is also significantly more wear resistant and holds an edge significantly longer than Aogami 2, 1, or super. It is all anecdotal ofcourse , but I've had experience with 2 different kitchen knives with hap 40, 1 folder and 2 folders with CPM rex45, which is similar. HAP 40, in my experience, chipped less than something like Toyama aogami 2 for example and less than R2/SG2 as well. Could be that I too were lucky I suppose. It is also somewhat stain resistant, a lot more so than simple carbon steels. It might still not be the best steel for a beginner because it is more difficult to sharpen, especially to sharpen well. The edge though seems to last much longer and is pretty durable even at high hardness.

 

[Valinski]

Thanks again for the great info!

Although I understand the benefits of the mentioned japanese steel varieties - and of course there is something special to a knife you have "to baby" like that - the arguments Michi mentioned are quite convincing. Especially when considering the fact that this is her first japanese high-end (for me) knife.

I very much like the Gingami Gyuto you mentioned. That is a very nice knife and probably a near-perfect choice for someone new. And it's a knife that many people would love to own, definitely not a beginner model. The added benefit is that it is stainless, which makes the knife much less of a hassle to use.

he Blackclouds Gyuto also looks like a fine choice. SLD is a really good steel, fairly easy to sharpen, and it won't rust. (Nothing is perfectly stainless, but SLD comes close, and you'd have to treat it really badly to get it to rust.)

I'm really torn apart between these two. I took a look at a few of her knives and they are all between 200-260g (~210mm blade length) so I'm not sure if a super light one would be more awkward than a not so much heavier one. Judging on the aesthetics I tend to like the Gingami a little bit more. Decisions, decisions ...

 

[alterwisser]

Buy local and get a Kamon!

Added benefit: you can visit him in the shop ....

Although I heard he’s a grumpy old bastard so it might not be a benefit haha.... j/k ... (or am I?!)

 

[inferno]

i have to agree with michi here. dont get anything carbon!
i'm making/grinding 2 blades on stones now, monosteel carbon. and even if i wipe them down good then next day when i pick them up the whole blade can be yellow. rust.

a honyaki is a monosteel carbon blade with a hamon, i'd forget about that very quickly as a gift.

I would also choose r2 over hss steels. but as a gift i would not even give an r2 knife. takes too long to sharpen for most non knife people.

one thing though. it doesn't really matter if you give someone the best knife in the entire universe. its gonna get dull sooner or later anyway. and if they dont know how to sharpen it?? then what?

so far i have given away:
a mac cryoed santoku, a stone holder and a 500 and 3k glass stones.
a jck stainless clad blue 2 (carbon) with custom handle by me and a chosera 1k and glass 6k. and a stone holder.
a mac cryoed santoku with custom handle and a 2 missarka stones 800/3k grit and a stone holder.
a hinoura white2 iron clad nakiri with custom handle by me, and 2 stones. naniwa hibiki 1k/3k and a holder.
all were extensively customized and worked over to be perfect. these were my own knives originally.

you see the the knives themselves are next to worthless in very short time unless the end user can sharpen them.

 

[inferno]

what about a damascus kramer by zwilling and a stone?

if i was buying a knife just to give away i'd probably get a hattori forums knife from jck. will never rust, good steel, no finish (damsacus) to fade away/wear out/baby and no finish to destroy when sharpening.
its as noob friendly as it gets.

 

[Michi]

I'm really torn apart between these two. I took a look at a few of her knives and they are all between 200-260g (~210mm blade length) so I'm not sure if a super light one would be more awkward than a not so much heavier one. Judging on the aesthetics I tend to like the Gingami a little bit more. Decisions, decisions ...

Like I said, it's difficult to be sure because knives are such personal things. The Sukenari SG-2 I linked to in my first reply might be the right compromise. At 220 g, it sits in the Goldilocks zone and is a superb-quality knife.

SG-2 isn't quite as forgiving as SLD or Ginagami but still acceptable, in my opinion. Be aware though that your friend really cannot treat a Japanese knife like a Wüsthof. No cutting of semi-frozen foods, seeds, pork crackling, or crusty bread, and no contact with bones. Doing any of things will take chips out of the blade (regardless of the steel type, it's just a matter of degree). SG-2 will take a bit of a patina, but resists rust quite well. It will stand up to being wet for a while, unless your friend insists on leaving the wet knife for extended periods (say, more than half an hour).

you see the the knives themselves are next to worthless in very short time unless the end user can sharpen them.

Yes. That's another reason why a Japanese knife is a two-edged sword (pun intended). It puts obligations on the user that might be too intimidating: handle it carefully, don't leave it wet, don't drop it, don't cut hard stuff, don't use a honing steel on it, and regularly hand-sharpen it on stones.

what about a damascus kramer by zwilling and a stone?

@Valinski This is known as "the entrance to the rabbit hole"

All Japanese knives will get dull. Depending on steel and frequency of use, it might take weeks, or it might take months. But, eventually, the knife will need sharpening. You could add a set of stones for your friend. But she might see that as too imposing or intimidating. The stones won't magically do the trick by themselves; it takes time and effort to learn how to sharpen, and the first few attempts will produce less than stellar results. But, if you want to add stones, here is a nice up-market stone set with quality stones and a good sink bridge:

https://www.zwilling.com/us/zwillin...one-sharpening-set-34999-403/34999-400-0.html

And, to get your friend started, this is a good and non-threatening video. It might help to make things look a little less scary:



@inferno The Kramer knife is an interesting suggestion, and a very good knife by all accounts. But it's not Japanese, quite heavy, and has an unusual profile. I believe @Valinski ruled out mass-produced knives in his OP, so I don't think the Kramer meets the criteria.

 

[Valinski]

And again thank you very much Michi!

To make things a little bit more complex I also took Ashi into consideration (maybe a Gyuto and a Petty) (thanks to @mack for the tips).

Does the weight come into play depending on the food you want to prepare, let's say there'd be more vegetables to cut on a regular basis, should I pick a heavier or lighter weight knife?

 

[Michi]

Does the weight come into play depending on the food you want to prepare, let's say there'd be more vegetables to cut on a regular basis, should I pick a heavier or lighter weight knife?

It depends on the style of cut and personal preference. For lots of veggie chopping, something a little heavier usually works better because the weight of the knife does some of the work; for lots of slicing (pull cuts), something lighter makes the job a bit easier, as it does for detailed work and fine precise cuts with the tip, because the knife is more nimble.

A middle-weight knife will do everything really well, especially by western knife standards.