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Gyuto vs Deba

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bechler

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Are Debas that much stronger than Gyutos? And if I were to get a Deba would it be better than getting a western knife such as a wusthof?
 

Citizen Snips

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what are you looking to do with it?

deba is a fish butchering knife, not an all purpose knife such as your chef's knife or a gyuto

also, what do you mean by stronger?
 

tk59

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Chances are you don't want or need a deba unless you are a fish monger. A gyuto is a nice all around knife. If you want something thicker than most gyutos, you can get a "western" deba. Wusthof is a german name brand. They make a lot of serviceable knives, none of which perform particularly well in cutting tasks.
 

Eamon Burke

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I think you mean a "western deba". A deba is a fish butchery tool, and looks like this:

They are very thick and heavy.


A western deba is this:

They are much thicker and heavier than a regular gyuto/chef's, but are intended to be more well-rounded than a Deba.


The question of "would it be better" is a philosophical one. A practical answer can only be obtained if you give us information about what you want! There is a questionnaire for just these kinds of situations:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?2058-Which-knife-should-you-buy
 

Eamon Burke

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I know gyutos are very thin and was wondering if the deba is a more durable "workhorse" kind of a knife. I am looking at the western deba from Hattori.
One of the fundamental things that creates the difference(read:superiority) of mass-produced Japanese cutlery over mass-produced American and German cutlery is the understanding that if you use good steel and treat it well, you don't have to have something the size of an axe to withstand the rigors of a kitchen, and thinner knives cut more efficiently. The light and thinness of J-blades is not in any way a weakness, but instead it is a sign that they can do anything Wusthof can do better.
 

tk59

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One of the fundamental things that creates the difference(read:superiority) of mass-produced Japanese cutlery over mass-produced American and German cutlery is the understanding that if you use good steel and treat it well, you don't have to have something the size of an axe to withstand the rigors of a kitchen, and thinner knives cut more efficiently. The light and thinness of J-blades is not in any way a weakness, but instead it is a sign that they can do anything Wusthof can do better.
Yes and no. Wusthofs are designed to withstand prolonged contact with water without rusting, being battered around like a hammer (sorta) without chipping, and being steeled repeatedly for the sharpening-incompetent consumer in mind. If you do not need these things, the Wusthof has nothing for you. If you do, well then that's your kind of knife.
 

JohnnyChance

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Let's also point out that not all gyutos are thin razor blades. There are some thicker ones that will hold up just as well as a wustof or western deba, but cut much better than either. Tojiro DP? What is your budget?
 

Eamon Burke

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Yes and no. Wusthofs are designed to withstand prolonged contact with water without rusting, being battered around like a hammer (sorta) without chipping, and being steeled repeatedly for the sharpening-incompetent consumer in mind. If you do not need these things, the Wusthof has nothing for you. If you do, well then that's your kind of knife.
I've seen more than a few wusthofs that have rust spots on them from dishwashers, and more than a few quality j-blades that can be seriously abused without chipping, and any knife can withstand proper steeling for a long time, and nothing(not even a wusthof) can survive gordon-ramsay-style abuse.

I've always had an open mind about knife types, and have always given every brand the benefit of the doubt. I also go to great lengths to discover what people like in popular things. What I've learned about german knives(Henckels and Wusthof's best selling lines in perticular), is that people like them because they don't know any better and want to like their knives bad enough that they pick something and love it. They offer nothing. They cut like crap, don't last, aren't even advertised in store as PERMANENT PURCHASES, are ergonomically incorrect, look like barf, are inconsistent, etc etc. I've yet to figure out what is good about them. They can't withstand abuse or mistreatment, they aren't designed to fit the use style of casual cooks, and they aren't made to last.

They are a marketing gimmick, IMO. Made to hit a cost point and sell at a certain price. There are many I've met in the past year that do ALL their kitchen cutting with scissors. All those Wal-Mart/Bed Bath & Beyond/Target brands do for you is lighten your wallet and cut about as good as any other flattish object.

*edit* I should add that this wasn't just a rant off the wall, it was intended for the benefit of the poster.
 

NO ChoP!

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I think there are some heavier or "mightier" gyutos that one should consider before diving into a western deba as an all arounder....

A traditional deba is used literally to split; the edge cutting the flesh, the hefty wedge blade splitting behind. Not very conducive for normal veggie prep....
 

UglyJoe

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Yeah, the western deba is still mostly a butchery tool, although maybe a more "all arounder" than a deba and certainly doesn't require the technique a deba does. However, it's simply not meant for most veg prep. Regardless of how sharp you get the edge, the knife will wedge and split any produce that is slightly hard. I would highly suggest against it for an all purpose knife. If you are looking for a knife that has more heft and weight but is still good at all around prep and is still relatively cheap, I'd go with the Hiro AS. They even make a "thick" model, although I've yet to see one reviewed on the forums by anyone so I can't suggest it here. I have a Hiro AS 270 gyuto, and it's a fine knife. It's not the cutting machine of many of the more expensive knives, but it is a great starter knife, has great steel, and is stainless clad so maintenance is a breeze. You can even thin it out if you want to get better performance, though I'd say 95% of cooks out there would be more than satisfied with the geometry of the knife out of the box, particularly when compared to something like a German knife.
 

EdipisReks

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none of the western debas i've seen, including the one i own, are terribly conducive to all-around use.
 

bechler

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Let's also point out that not all gyutos are thin razor blades. There are some thicker ones that will hold up just as well as a wustof or western deba, but cut much better than either. Tojiro DP? What is your budget?
I'd like to keep it in the 250 dollar range, not much higher. What do you recommend?
 

bechler

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What are some of the "heavier" or "mightier" gyutos everyone is talking about?
 

Seb

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What is the OP going to use it for or is it Classified Information?
 

UglyJoe

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What are some of the "heavier" or "mightier" gyutos everyone is talking about?
Again, the Hiro AS is a great choice and saves you $30 off your quoted price. There are a lot of knives in the price range that meet your requirements.
 

Benuser

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What makes you think you are going to need a heavier knife than a common gyuto?? Is it still the idea a good knife should be thick and fat? For general preparation tasks a thin gyuto will do. And the very few times you want some heavier stuff use a cleaver or a fat stainless German - just because you won't care about damaging a soft steel.
 

EdipisReks

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if yo and stainless is okay, it's hard to go wrong with the Akifusa. i kinda miss mine, might get one again.
 

ecchef

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Sounds like you might want to check out Mac or the aforementioned Tojiro as well.
 

Eamon Burke

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Tojiro DP steel is chippy as hell. I wouldn't go with that if he has the scratch for anything better.

Hiromoto AS 240.
 

tk59

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I doubt you need a beastly knife BUT I would consider a Yoshihiro and an Aritsugu A-type (if you have the will) as somewhat heftier tools. Tojiros are good but VG10 in general seems to be a bit chippy. I would probably favor Fujiwara at that price point.

With regard to german cutlery and Eamon's rant... While there may be some exceptions, I stand by my statement. On the average, german steel is more stain resistant, and less brittle. I have a set of Henckels that I use on occasion just to get my bearings so to speak and while there is no joy in using them, they do hold a serviceable edge long enough to get the job done.
 

tk59

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Forgot about the Glestain. I love mine although I haven't had much of a chance to use it recently... I think I'll go back to it for a while when I get a chance. As for MAC, the higher grade MACs used to be made from more wear resistant steel and harder. Apparently, this is no longer the case. They all use the same steel w/o tungsten... Still not bad knives but there is one less reason to get the heavier, more expensive lines.
 

Timthebeaver

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Forgot about the Glestain. I love mine although I haven't had much of a chance to use it recently... I think I'll go back to it for a while when I get a chance. As for MAC, the higher grade MACs used to be made from more wear resistant steel and harder. Apparently, this is no longer the case. They all use the same steel w/o tungsten... Still not bad knives but there is one less reason to get the heavier, more expensive lines.

iirc the MAC Ultimate series knives are still made with the "Superior" steel with tungsten. Definitely "mighty" and definitely expensive.
 

NO ChoP!

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Hiromoto, Blazen, Yoshihiro, Yoshikane, Mizuno, to name a few.... try epeicedge.com, they have a good bit of "mighty" style gyutos.
 

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