Help a newb? List of knives/steel...

[BrokenChef]

I'm new to the scene in terms of understanding types of metal, what's available and what commonly knows blades are made of.

I'm looking for info but Google sucks these days - all I get are "best 10 knives of 2023" bs.. sponsored results with links to garbage - full of lies. Results that have nothing to do with my search.

I'm looking for:
1. A good history/info of all the steels with an explanation of what it all means... Types, hardness, thickness of blades, shapes, etc, etc.

2. A list of common blades and what type of steel they are... From the garbage Wolfgang Puck china baldes, Wustoff, Henkels, Forschner/Victorinox, Chicago Cutlery, Dexter Russell, etc etc, all the way up to premium German, Swiss, and Japanese brands.

Basically all the knowledge that all you pros know of the top of your head from years of experience.

Providing such information and lists exist..

Thanks so much!!!

 

[blokey]

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/

 

[Barmoley]

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/

I was about to link exactly this. It is a good start and the whole site is a wealth of information.

 

[Nemo]

+1 on knifesteelnerds.

Zknives has a useful database on steel compositions.

The JKI sharpening series includes a primer on Japanese steels.

It's also important to be aware that a properly heat treated steel is more important than the exact composition.

 

[jedy617]

Also see this if you want history, written by Larrin from the same links above: https://www.amazon.com/Story-Knife-Steel-Innovators-Damascus/dp/B0C4MM5LPL/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2HWEEPR8GS7SQ&keywords=history+of+knife+steels&qid=1700458706&sprefix=history+of+knife+steels,aps,102&sr=8-1

 

[BrokenChef]

This forum is AMAZING!!!

I've only been a member of a few forums, but I have to say: The amount of prompt and premium info, so freely given here, is way beyond anything I've experienced!

You all are awesome!!

 

[Jovidah]

The knifesteelnerds page and the Zknives charts are probably the most useful. Just keep in mind that steel type is but one factor in the total package determining knife performance. As dave once put it really well: 'it doesn't really determine how well a knife well perform, only how long it will do so'. So try to stay out of the trap of just chasing steels and more rockwell while ignoring all other aspects. I favor some of my knives with inferior (but still decent) steel over some of my other knives simply because they're better in other regards.

That being said, as you probably experienced it's not entirely irrelevant either. There's plenty of garbage on the market that just won't take an edge, or won't keep it. Heat treatment can also be a factor there.

 

[Barmoley]

Once you are done reading about steels these are very good discussions about the other aspects of knives.

Food Release: Stiction and the Grind
A Basic Explanation of Asymmetry
Kippington Deburring Video

 

[BrokenChef]

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/

Wow, um.. be careful what I wish for, lol. I'm not much further ahead after reading that.

Onto the other readings.. I'll come back to this 8 or 10 times to see if I can pick up more of it.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

@BrokenChef I love chatting steels as much as the next guy (some might even say quite a bit more). But especially when you are starting I would focus more on finding knives by makers with reputations for having cutting geometry that fit your usage well. There is plenty of time to focus in on steels once you know which grinds and profiles you like.

 

[BrokenChef]

@BrokenChef I love chatting steels as much as the next guy (some might even say quite a bit more). But especially when you are starting I would focus more on finding knives by makers with reputations for having cutting geometry that fit your usage well. There is plenty of time to focus in on steels once you know which grinds and profiles you like.

This is something I should have done 30 years ago, lol

I'm but a home chef, generally cooking for 2 these days.

*1. How would I go about figuring out which grinds and profiles I like?

I'm pretty adaptable to whatever kinfe I pick up... As long as it's sharp, I'm good. It's not ideal, but I can dice an onion with a bread knife if the only chef knife on hand is dull af... Like at a vacation rental, visiting friend, etc.

*2. I'm interested in figuring out what is a good toughness/edge retention balance... For example, I picked a knife from MTC purely based on aesthetics and size. Turns out to be V10 steel, which seems to have a good balance based on the charts. But one of members commented that I may want to choose a different steel. He didn't say why and I didn't ask. A hardness of 5 and edge of 8.5 "sounds" good to me...
*3. But perhaps it's not hard enough? Is there a major difference between a hardness of 5 and 6?
*4. What is the general accepted level for a gyuto, paring, boning? Obviously I'd want harder steel for a cleaver... The three main knives I use are chef, paring, and boning... Occasionally use a carver for roasts/breasts and a slicer for prime rib.... But only do prime rib once or twice a year so I'd def not be buying a $500 blade that only gets used twice a year... I'll just sharpen the carver and slicer I have...
If I were to ever buy Japanese blades, I'd get a gyuto and paring, maybe a boner.

I'll definitely be keeping an eye out at yard sales, estate sales and local social media classifieds for any rusty blades with Japanese symbols stamped on them. Not something I would have paid attention to in the past.

*** I numbered my questions.. in case anyone cares to discuss one or more subjects, you can just list the number and start typing.

TIA

 

[jedy617]

On VG-10, I personally don't love it because I think there are better options. For example SG2 has both better edge retention and toughness. I find it a bit chippy for not a ton of relative edge retention. However, I think it will be a huge upgrade compared to what you are used to.

Also confused by what you mean by a hardness of 5 and an edge of 8.5? The chart on knife steel nerds says a toughness of 4, edge retention 4.5, and stainlessness 7.5.

You have to be quite careful when you talk about hardness. It is not always an inherent property of the steel. Blacksmiths choose the hardness (in a relative range of course, some steels have maximum hardness they can reach) and all have different optimal ranges. One blacksmiths VG10 might be 59hrc while another's will be 61. Just because it's VG10 doesn't mean it's all the same. Some steels like Vanax for example have their peak around 59-60hrc while you will see ZDP-189 around 67-68 and crazy steels like Rex121 going into the 70's.

In terms of grinds...I think the only way to know would be about experience. Like getting something we know is a "laser" like a takamura r2/sg2 or an ashi ginga, and compared to something more workhorsey/thicker (to be fair I am not very knowledgeable on more affordable workhorses)

 

[M1k3]

(to be fair I am not very knowledgeable on more affordable workhorses)

Munetoshi

 

[BrokenChef]

On VG-10, I personally don't love it because I think there are better options. For example SG2 has both better edge retention and toughness. I find it a bit chippy for not a ton of relative edge retention. However, I think it will be a huge upgrade compared to what you are used to.

Also confused by what you mean by a hardness of 5 and an edge of 8.5? The chart on knife steel nerds says a toughness of 4, edge retention 4.5, and stainlessness 7.5.

You have to be quite careful when you talk about hardness. It is not always an inherent property of the steel. Blacksmiths choose the hardness (in a relative range of course, some steels have maximum hardness they can reach) and all have different optimal ranges. One blacksmiths VG10 might be 59hrc while another's will be 61. Just because it's VG10 doesn't mean it's all the same. Some steels like Vanax for example have their peak around 59-60hrc while you will see ZDP-189 around 67-68 and crazy steels like Rex121 going into the 70's.

In terms of grinds...I think the only way to know would be about experience. Like getting something we know is a "laser" like a takamura r2/sg2 or an ashi ginga, and compared to something more workhorsey/thicker (to be fair I am not very knowledgeable on more affordable workhorses)

I guess I was looking at the wrong chart. I remembered v10 and saw 10V on the chart and thought that was it...

 

[jedy617]

Yeah 10v is very very different haha, it's a beast, will keep cutting forever. And those are the non stainless steels.

 

[BrokenChef]

I wouldn't think there's much difference between 59 and 61hrc?

So when it says 6 on the chart, that's a 60hrc?

Is there a minimum tough/edge/corrosion set that you generally try to stay above?

Or even say a minimum hardness and minimum edge retention? Corrosion seems like it can be dealt with by proper care.

Is there a list of knife makers and what steel they use? I see everyone mentioning names which have no meaning to me at this point... Trying to speed up my understanding and recognition a bit.

When I joined this forum, my idea of an expensive knife was $200-$300... But I see that's actually the low end. Compared to $60 for my 12" Forschner Chef knife, $200-$300 is a lot, lol.

Some of you have more $ in 1 blade than my entire toolbox of blades is worth. This blows my mind because I would never have taken an $800 knife to work... I'd have needed a sheath on my side so that it never left me. And I just can't justify that kind of money for a home knife... I'd have to trade 2 months of food for an $800 knife, lol I also don't see what could possibly make them THAT much better... The time to chop an onion isn't going to be cut in half with an $800 knife... Maybe less juice on the board, but definitely not $800 less juice. I feel like I'm missing something, but maybe I'm overly practical (aka cheap).

And I see there are some that reach $2500.... I can't think of any reason to have a $2500 knife... Unless it appreciates and makes me money in 20 years. I suppose if I won the lottery I'd have a drawer full... At each house, lol

I don't feel bad using my knives for cutting open boxes, etc, where if I had an $800 knife, I wouldn't let it touch anything but food. The versatility of abusing a cheap blade brings me comfort.. if that makes sense. I already told my mom not to touch any Japanese knifes I get. She's the type who cuts food against her thumb and almost every time she uses my knifes, she cuts herself. She did it the other day halving grapes, I told her (for the 1000th time) "Food goes on the cutting board"!

 

[BrokenChef]

Yeah 10v is very very different haha, it's a beast, will keep cutting forever. And those are the non stainless steels.

I like the idea of stainless and mirror finish, but I'd be ok with having to oil them for storage in exchange for significantly better edge retention... I think.

 

[jedy617]

I wouldn't think there's much difference between 59 and 61hrc?

So when it says 6 on the chart, that's a 60hrc?

Is there a minimum tough/edge/corrosion set that you generally try to stay above?

Or even say a minimum hardness and minimum edge retention? Corrosion seems like it can be dealt with by proper care.

Is there a list of knife makers and what steel they use? I see everyone mentioning names which have no meaning to me at this point... Trying to speed up my understanding and recognition a bit.

When I joined this forum, my idea of an expensive knife was $200-$300... But I see that's actually the low end. Compared to $60 for my 12" Forschner Chef knife, $200-$300 is a lot, lol.

Some of you have more $ in 1 blade than my entire toolbox of blades is worth. This blows my mind because I would never have taken an $800 knife to work... I'd have needed a sheath on my side so that it never left me. And I just can't justify that kind of money for a home knife... I'd have to trade 2 months of food for an $800 knife, lol I also don't see what could possibly make them THAT much better... The time to chop an onion isn't going to be cut in half with an $800 knife... Maybe less juice on the board, but definitely not $800 less juice. I feel like I'm missing something, but maybe I'm overly practical (aka cheap).

And I see there are some that reach $2500.... I can't think of any reason to have a $2500 knife... Unless it appreciates and makes me money in 20 years. I suppose if I won the lottery I'd have a drawer full... At each house, lol

I don't feel bad using my knives for cutting open boxes, etc, where if I had an $800 knife, I wouldn't let it touch anything but food. The versatility of abusing a cheap blade brings me comfort.. if that makes sense. I already told my mom not to touch any Japanese knifes I get. She's the type who cuts food against her thumb and almost every time she uses my knifes, she cuts herself. She did it the other day halving grapes, I told her (for the 1000th time) "Food goes on the cutting board"!

No....the numbers in that page are arbitrary. I personally don't love that article. It's just in comparison to the other steels on the list, and rate them 1 through 10. And depending on the steel, 2hrc points can make a pretty decent difference although that wasn't the point of my post. HRC is not a linear relationship. There is also more to a good heat treat besides the hardness.

 

[Nemo]

I like the idea of stainless and mirror finish, but I'd be ok with having to oil them for storage in exchange for significantly better edge retention... I think.

If you can sharpen, then you don't need significantly better edge retention unless you are doing high volume commercial prep.

If you can't, it's pretty easy to learn the basics. Especially on simple steels.

Stainless steels tend to have higher edge retention due to the abrasion resistant carbides. But it varies a lot from steel to steel. They also tend to be more difficult to deburr. Difficulty deburring is, IMO, the main reason why complex steels are "harder to sharpen" (rather than difficulty in actually grinding or abrading the steel).

Mirror polish looks pretty.

But.

It's a pain in the proverbial to maintain (it shows up every little scratch) and it kills food release because every scrap of food wants to suck itself on to the smooth surface. IME, bright/ migaki and semi mirror finishes are the sweet spot for food release. Also for the tradeoff between aesthetics, durability and ease of maintenance of the finish. Anywhere in the range 600 grit to 3 or 4K grit seems to work well.

 

[Nemo]

I wouldn't think there's much difference between 59 and 61hrc?

So when it says 6 on the chart, that's a 60hrc?

Is there a minimum tough/edge/corrosion set that you generally try to stay above?

Or even say a minimum hardness and minimum edge retention? Corrosion seems like it can be dealt with by proper care.

Is there a list of knife makers and what steel they use? I see everyone mentioning names which have no meaning to me at this point... Trying to speed up my understanding and recognition a bit.

When I joined this forum, my idea of an expensive knife was $200-$300... But I see that's actually the low end. Compared to $60 for my 12" Forschner Chef knife, $200-$300 is a lot, lol.

Some of you have more $ in 1 blade than my entire toolbox of blades is worth. This blows my mind because I would never have taken an $800 knife to work... I'd have needed a sheath on my side so that it never left me. And I just can't justify that kind of money for a home knife... I'd have to trade 2 months of food for an $800 knife, lol I also don't see what could possibly make them THAT much better... The time to chop an onion isn't going to be cut in half with an $800 knife... Maybe less juice on the board, but definitely not $800 less juice. I feel like I'm missing something, but maybe I'm overly practical (aka cheap).

And I see there are some that reach $2500.... I can't think of any reason to have a $2500 knife... Unless it appreciates and makes me money in 20 years. I suppose if I won the lottery I'd have a drawer full... At each house, lol

I don't feel bad using my knives for cutting open boxes, etc, where if I had an $800 knife, I wouldn't let it touch anything but food. The versatility of abusing a cheap blade brings me comfort.. if that makes sense. I already told my mom not to touch any Japanese knifes I get. She's the type who cuts food against her thumb and almost every time she uses my knifes, she cuts herself. She did it the other day halving grapes, I told her (for the 1000th time) "Food goes on the cutting board"!

The "ratings" that you quote are arbitrary and meant only for comparison purposes. They don't (to my knowledge) equate to real world hardness and toughness numbers (except that a higher rating implies a better number).

There is a big difference between HRC 59 and 61. It's a very non linear scale. IMO, decent edge stability starts around 61 or 62 HRC. Below this, the steel can't maintain an edge that is acute AND thin (the steel will roll over, like in a Western knife). I don't look at toughness as much, except for certain tasks.

Corrosion can be managed. Allowing a patina is a great way to do this. IME, the main downside of carbon steels (by this, I mean "non stainless steels" - all steels contain carbon by definition) is that the edge is more susceptible to micro corrosion in acidic ingredients. This can be managed by rinsing the edge after cutting an acidic ingredient. It can often be repaired by a quick pass over a loaded strop or a dry fine stone.

Most knifemakers use several different steels.

You can get excellent performance in a $300 knife. Even some $150 knives. My Shiro Kamo Aogami Super Kurochi gyuto retails for 150 USD in 210mm length. It's usually got a spot in my rotation.

So why do people pay much more (or charge much more) for knives? Glad you asked:
1) Grind consistently (no low or high spots in the grind) and overall grind execution. My SK is actually pretty good here.
2) Surface finishes. Mirror and damascus finishes add a lot of time and effort and cost big bucks. Especially mirror polish. Once you have attempted your first mirror polish, you will realise why.
3) Special heat treatments. Here, I'm mainly thinking of honyaki/ differentially hardened blades. This adds cost because of the skill required and the high failure rate, leading to a throw away blade. Often, the failure is only apparent once there has been hours of labour sunk in to polishing the blade. Some of the harder (66 or 67 HRC) Aogami Super (AS) heat treatments are said to have a high failure rate as well. Not so much the ones from Echizen (including the Shiro Kamo), which are in the 63ish range IIRC.
4) A knife from a famous or well regarded smith, sharpener or product "line" is often sought after and the price can be inflated. Looking at you Shig and Kato. And not only.
5) Fit and finish on the blade, including spine and choil rounding and general blade finish take time and effort and thus cost money.
6) Fancy handles (and sayas) can add a LOT of cost to a knife.

 

[Logan A.]

I see everyone mentioning names which have no meaning to me at this point... Trying to speed up my understanding and recognition

There's no real way to fast track all the learning in this hobby. Keep on the forums and you'll learn a ton of the basic terminology and relevant steels, but hands on experience with a multitude of different knives will get you farther than any reading.
I personally chose to primarirly focus on Japanese makers and steels initially. This allowed me to narrow my focus and increase my knowledge-base on that one area. Later down the road I've learned a bit more about western makers and the various Western steels. This was the most efficient path for me.

 

[daveb]

Like others have suggested, I'll jump in with don't get lost in the minutia. Steel types, hardness, yada, yada.

Focus on some of the more obvious attributes. Stainless or Carbon? Flat profile or a little rounded? Length? Weight - Laser, Workhorse or hogsplitter? Reviewing your requirements with someone like Jon (or his staff) at Japanese Knife Imports can go a long way to translating your requirements to a viable knife. Pulling your requirements together for the "Which Knife?" questionnaire can also help quantify them. And will get you recommendations that are mostly tailored for you.

Everyone here started where you are now. You can learn about your preferences just by using a knife. You can refine those preferences by careful use of BST to try different knives if you wish. And everyone will have their own point of diminishing returns where spending xxx.xx on a knife is crazy. And if you think knives are crazy you should read what some of these guys spend on watches!

Have fun with it. Find a knife or knives that you enjoy using, get good with them, get good with maintaining them, and see where you want to go from there.

 

[Nemo]

And if you think knives are crazy you should read what some of these guys spend on watches!

Or natural stones!

 

[Jovidah]

I'm not the most knowledgable on knife steels but I'll try to do my best at giving my 'idiot interpretation'. The best analogue for knife steel is probably that of a dough; the composition is the recipe, but then there's also the heat treatment that has an influence on how it comes out. So you can get some variety within the same steel. But something important to keep in mind is that steel is not like homogenous bread dough, it's more like chocolate chip (the carbides). Those actually contribute significantly to attributes like edge retention. That's also why HRC only has a loose correlation with edge retention, since it mostly gives you the hardness of the matrix and not of the carbides. The carbides can be significantly harder.

As to figuring out what you like or dislike in a grind or profile, there's no real substitute for trying stuff, and using that as a frame of reference. This is why accessing a knife store is ideal because it at least allows you to weed out anything that really doesn't float your boat just based on handling it. Otherwise you'll have to actually buy stuff, preferably stuff that's as dissimilar as possible to get a feel for where you land.

I wouldn't worry too much about 'what is the perfect steel for you' in the initial stage, though it is helpful to decide whether you want stainless, semi-stainless, or iron-clad/stainess-clald or monosteel carbon. Although even that is basicaly a nuance thing. In general if you go with big known names / shops you're unlikely to get something that's really bad. But for figuring out your preferences it doesn't really matter a whole lot whether a knife comes in shirogami vs aogami steel, or in AEB-L vs ginsan.

Most of us invest primarily in our 'main' knife, be that a gyuto or a cleaver or whatever floats your boat. Paring knives is not something the Japanese do particularly well (many smiths don't do them at all) so there's not a lot to choose there. Same story with boning knives; if you're looking for a western style boning knife you won't find much, although many of us do use Japanese knives in the role (usually petty, honesuki or hankotsu knives).

 

[Jovidah]

To my knowledge HRC scale is logarithmic, so going up makes more of a difference than you'd expect (since brains are hardwired to think linear).
Larrin's numbers are to my knowledge mostly for 'relative comparison', not related to some objective value. For the reasons outlined above it would also be difficult since lower HRC steels can outperform higher HRC steels on certain aspects.

Toughness, while not being entirely irrelevant (edge retention can degrade by chipping) isn't hugely important for kitchen knives as long as you use them in their intended role. But as long as you're not chopping bones, wood or doing other abusive stuff it's not something you should lose sleep over (rule of fist: don't cut anything you wouldn't bite into; use other softer blades for that).

Edge retention is... really 'what are you looking for'. In home use it doesn't necessarily matter all that much since you're only cutting limited amounts of produce. The higher edge retention steels can also be a bit more work to sharpen. This is for example why simple carbon steels are so popular; they might not have the best edge retention, but they are really easy to get a great edge on extremely quickly.

Corrosion is also not a major issue as long as you don't leave your knives sitting around dirty. Even the most simple carbon monosteel is actually quite forgiving... the only thing that I ever really found annoying from a reactivity perspective was iron cladding - because it's a lot more reactive than any of the carbon core steels, but you'll find plenty of people here who happily use nothing but iron-clad knives as well.

As to what's expensive.... usually people's view of pricing slowly goes up over time. But I wouldn't necessarily feel the need to dive in the deep end straight away. There's still plenty of knives in the more palatable price range, and spending more doesn't always mean more performance; you're usually in diminishing returns territory. Nothing wrong with being cheap, there's plenty of less affluent or outright cheapskate people around here too (personally I'm both!). Especially in the 'figuring out your preferences' period it's probably better to stick to affordable stuff to get a lay of the land and figure out what you really like.
I actually share your problematic view of 'knives that are too expensive'; for me they'd also end up being drawer queens or getting babied, which would diminish their utility as a tool.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

You've been given some very good insight and advice.

Don't worry about steels right now. You're a long way from caring too much about all of that. As said, really just think stainless or non-stainless right now.

If you want to dive into the steel rabbit hole just for fun and education, then subscribe to YouTube channels like @Larrin's Knife Steel Nerds and @Deadboxhero's Triple B Handmade.

You don't need to spend $200-300 on a knife that makes you happy. We can help you find good options below that. I have several knives in the $100-150 range that I love.

You already have a fair idea of where you're starting. You like 210mm+ and something at least a little more robust vs. a thin edged laser. That's a starting point. Then look at the questionnaire @daveb mentioned. It's in the sticky threads.

I don't remember where you are in sharpening? If I recall, you have a new-to-you knife on the way. I'd shift attention to sharpening if you aren't already there. We can help with that too.

 

[BrokenChef]

Thanks everyone!!! That helps a lot. I wasn't really focusing on picking a certain steal so much as trying to understand the differences and cut offs that most people prefer. You all explained that better than those charts! My biggest concern here is that I find something I think I like, but it's not great steel, so I'm just trying to understand the differences....

As you mentioned, I'm not seeing a lot of oaring knives, and a lot of them are VG-10 steel... Knowing that's not ideal I'll avoid paying $150 for a VG-10 paring knife!

I've only ever used stainless so I'm very curious about non stainless, harder steel.

I'd definitely need to try a wa handle to have any idea if I'd like that. Probably not (right away anyhow) because I've always used Western handles.

Sounds like I need to find a local shop where I can put my hands on a variety of blades.

I have received a set of stones and the knife is otw. I'm in cookie phase right now. Made dough the last 3 days, now have to bake it all in my little home oven - 2 half sheet trays at a time. Really missing a double stack convection right now!

But you are right, I need to focus on sharpening what I have and playing with the one coming in the mail.

Was just trying to learn some basics while resting my back and feet. I can only do about 3 hours on my feet, then an hour of resting, icing, and pain meds - before going back in for another 3 hours, lol

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Another thing to watch out for are terms like "Japanese style" or "using Japanese steel". These are major red flags of Chinese production and it's common that they list VG-10 as the steel. Some of those adds can be quite misleading.

Stick with reputable dealers you see mentioned here and that won't be an issue.

 

[BrokenChef]

Another thing to watch out for are terms like "Japanese style" or "using Japanese steel". These are major red flags of Chinese production and it's common that they list VG-10 as the steel. Some of those adds can be quite misleading.

Stick with reputable dealers you see mentioned here and that won't be an issue.

I've seen that already... $50 Japanese knife, made in China. I know there's a lot of acid etched fake Damascus out there. Is there a way to id fake Damascus.. other than the obvious Made in China.

I'm highly skeptical of everything, lol. Too many knock offs and scammers out there.

 

[jedy617]

Basically just buy from a good retailer and you won't have to worry. Some suggestions: Strata, knives and stones, bernal cutlery, carbon cutlery, Japanese knife imports, homebutcher, sugi cutlery are all some of my favorites. They won't sell anything that's not respectable.