Help decide: workhorse gyuto or mid-weight cleaver?

[Blerghle]

This is something for down the line, not purchasing right away. I'm thinning the herd and trying to complement the following keepers:

Starting lineup:
270 MAC bread knife
240 Zakuri blue #1 gyuto transitioning to suji (got a 220 stone on the way)
210 Shiki VG-10 gyuto (wife's, and handy to have a stainless around)
180 Hinoura White #2 santoku (love it, expect it to be my most used knife)
Munetoshi butcher (just got it, very pleased)
120 Gesshin stainless petty (on the way, replacing a Sabatier utility knife)
A paring knife
[THE NEXT KNIFE]

Bench/kept in storage but keeping:
300 Kanemasa E-series suji, budget 240 Tanaka yanagi, very heavy Chinese cleaver, large thin #1 carbon cleaver (great for what it is)


LOCATION
What country are you in?

USA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Either a full size cleaver or 240-270 mm gyuto

Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

My favorite handles on gyutos have been octagonal. I don't mind the round handle on my budget cleaver. Western is fine but wouldn't want to pay extra for it.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

If a gyuto, 240-270 mm. If a cleaver, I take it 220m give or take is full size?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

No. Would prefer carbon at least at the edge. Open to various claddings.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

Let's say $400. Price is a factor and could reasonably push me one way or the other for type.

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

At home exclusively

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

Whatever you might consider the Hinoura santoku too delicate/light for, or inconveniently short for.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Kindasorta replacing a 270 Tadatsuna ginsan gyuto and the memory of the Zakuri gyuto back when it was its original height

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

Primarily push cutting and slicing. Some rock chopping.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

I definitely want something with a convex grind and some weight to it.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Open to different finishes here. I would not expect to end up with damascus or the sort due to pricing. Probably wouldn't want the *most* reactive treatments out there.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

No plastic ferrules or particularly horrible handles, but not too fussed beyond that. Going for the 'drops through food' feeling here. Do not need to brunoise shallots, do want to be able to smash ginger without cracking the knife and cut root veg without cracking the veg.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Looking for the pleasures that come with a workhorse with a convex grind with a carbon edge: food release, ease of sharpening, 'knife does the work' kind of feeling

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?

Not a major factor

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

100% on edge grain BoardSMITH for this one

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Always room to improve

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

Pretty well set at this time


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

When I'm trying to decide between these two knife types, in my mind I'm thinking of something like a Watanabe Pro/Toyama workhorse gyuto versus something like a Sugimoto #7. I've never used a mid-weight cleaver but from my experience with a full size thin cleaver am not worried about comfort in use. I don't have a great sense of what other options are competitive with these within those categories, so I'm interested in other makers. But I am especially interested in your experiences of cleaver vs gyuto.

 

[Noodle Soup]

The Sugimoto No. 7 is heavy beast for sure. I was surprised when I found the factory edge was too thin for chopping chicken bones. I raised the angle on it a bit and its been my one of my favorite work horse choppers every since then. Great for mincing meat and fish along with chopping up chicken legs, backs, necks etc for broth.

 

[Blerghle]

I guess I'm not sure if I'd want #6 or #7 as a point of weight, or really what else is out there that's comparable. I don't want something so thick that it's not a great cutter.

 

[Nemo]

Chukabocho (cleavers) tend to be much more expensive than a similar gyuto, so I'd go gyuto if price (or value for money) is a foctor.

For completeness, it's worth pointing out that these convexed, heavy workhorse grinds slide through wet food beautifully but can wedge a bit in hard foods, especially tall hard foods. Nonetheless, I love these type of knives when I have a big, knife-intensive prep to get through. Big for a home cook anyway- pros will probably snicker at what I think is a big prep.

Definitely look at Watanabe Pro & Toyama in this space.

I have both Wakui White2 hammered and Yoshikane SKD hammered. Both are quite workhorsey, with convex wide bevels (which I find easier to maintain than convex non wde bevlel knives). Maybe one step below the Wat. I'm not sure if this applies to all of their hammered lines. You should ask the vendor. I understand that the Wakui kurochi are also pretty hefty but I haven't used omme and would definitely ask the vendor first.

[Edited to add: There are thinner lines made by both Wakui and Yoshi, so make sure you have the workhorsey one if that is what you are after.

It's also worht pointing out that Watanabe and Toyama are pretty tall (and therefore heavier) knives, Yoshikane is quite short and Wakui is in between.]

Lots of custom makers do this sort of knife, but not in this price range.

 

[Steampunk]

Cleavers are unique knives... Very different cutting technique to anything in the western kitchen. Lots of weight behind them to aid in the cut, but rocking is never on the menu. They want to push/pull cut, or straight-down chop. You're either a cleaver person, or you're not.

Not a fan of rock-chopping with gyutos, but some could suit this technique if you have no sympathy for their thinner edges and more brittle steels. Just look for the right profile. Personally, if rock chopping, go with a thicker western chef and use a rod to hone. Then use something else to do finer cuts... Western knives that you've sharpened well, like Frost/Mora or Victorinox, are nice workhorses to beat on for rockers.

Gyuto are like more delicate French knives... They're more limited, but also more precise.

For your price range, at today's market prices (Which are inflated), there are some good options... Still, you're going to have to pick a lane. You can be a choppy cleaver-guy, you can be a delicate gyuto guy, or you can be a rocky western guy... Whichever way you go, each loves to be sharpened a little differently.

The gyuto can do detail work that the western chef and cleaver cannot. The cleaver has weight to it that just powers through dense veg. The western chef will be the knife you'll never worry about, and can maintain forever while rocking with a rod as you cook to keep that sharp edge, but will not have the detail or the performance potential of either of its Asian brothers.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk

 

[Rangen]

The Sugimoto No. 7 is heavy beast for sure. I was surprised when I found the factory edge was too thin for chopping chicken bones. I raised the angle on it a bit and its been my one of my favorite work horse choppers every since then. Great for mincing meat and fish along with chopping up chicken legs, backs, necks etc for broth.

Interesting. I would not have thought of using that cleaver for that job. I have a thick, curved $35 cleaver obtained in a local Chinatown for bone-chopping purposes, and my Sugimotos (alas, only CM4030 and No. 6) are reserved for more delicate tasks. OK, I also have some giant thing I got in Hong Kong, which I think would cut more formidable bones, but I have not tried it out yet, since my local meat counter has a band saw.

 

[Blerghle]

Cleavers are unique knives... Very different cutting technique to anything in the western kitchen. Lots of weight behind them to aid in the cut, but rocking is never on the menu. They want to push/pull cut, or straight-down chop. You're either a cleaver person, or you're not.

Not a fan of rock-chopping with gyutos, but some could suit this technique if you have no sympathy for their thinner edges and more brittle steels. Just look for the right profile. Personally, if rock chopping, go with a thicker western chef and use a rod to hone. Then use something else to do finer cuts... Western knives that you've sharpened well, like Frost/Mora or Victorinox, are nice workhorses to beat on for rockers.

Gyuto are like more delicate French knives... They're more limited, but also more precise.

For your price range, at today's market prices (Which are inflated), there are some good options... Still, you're going to have to pick a lane. You can be a choppy cleaver-guy, you can be a delicate gyuto guy, or you can be a rocky western guy... Whichever way you go, each loves to be sharpened a little differently.

The gyuto can do detail work that the western chef and cleaver cannot. The cleaver has weight to it that just powers through dense veg. The western chef will be the knife you'll never worry about, and can maintain forever while rocking with a rod as you cook to keep that sharp edge, but will not have the detail or the performance potential of either of its Asian brothers.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk

I may be using the wrong term there with rock chopping. I'm not thinking of anchoring the tip and leaning into it. I'm just talking about, like, the final chopping of garlic/ginger or mincing some meat. I want a relatively rugged knife where the weight is an asset, but we're not talking about anything abusive. If I want precision or smaller work, I'm using the Hinoura. If I need to chop bones or cut some frozen stuff I have a stupid-heavy cleaver and a couple of bread knives. I have a thin cleaver - maybe a Town Food Service #1? - that I've used on and off since like 2010 without incident. Let's assume for the purpose of this discussion that I would adapt cutting style appropriately to the knife.

Chukabocho (cleavers) tend to be much more expensive than a similar gyuto, so I'd go gyuto if price (or value for money) is a foctor.

For completeness, it's worth pointing out that these convexed, heavy workhorse grinds slide through wet food beautifully but can wedge a bit in hard foods, especially tall hard foods. Nonetheless, I love these type of knives when I have a big, knife-intensive prep to get through. Big for a home cook anyway- pros will probably snicker at what I think is a big prep.

Definitely look at Watanabe Pro & Toyama in this space.

I have both Wakui White2 hammered and Yoshikane SKD hammered. Both are quite workhorsey, with convex wide bevels (which I find easier to maintain than convex non wde bevlel knives). Maybe one step below the Wat. I'm not sure if this applies to all of their hammered lines. You should ask the vendor. I understand that the Wakui kurochi are also pretty hefty but I haven't used one and would definitely ask the vendor first.

[Edited to add: There are thinner lines made by both Wakui and Yoshi, so make sure you have the workhorsey one if that is what you are after.

It's also worth pointing out that Watanabe and Toyama are pretty tall (and therefore heavier) knives, Yoshikane is quite short and Wakui is in between.]

Lots of custom makers do this sort of knife, but not in this price range.

I would definitely see height/weight as an asset and I appreciate the detail on the bevel size there - I also find wide bevels easier to maintain and will weigh all those different makers.

It makes sense that the cleavers would cost more at similar quality. I do want to at least make sure I have a good sense of what's out there other than Sugimoto. When the time comes I'll likely post in BST for used so might get me a little farther for the dollars.

 

[Nemo]

I would definitely see height/weight as an asset and I appreciate the detail on the bevel size there - I also find wide bevels easier to maintain and will weigh all those different makers.

Just to make sure that you are aware that convex wide bevels are a little different to thin than flat or concave wide bevels. Otherwise you'll end up with a flat wide bevel without as much food releasey goodness. My technique is based on @JBroida 's excellent JKI videos outlining single bevel sharpening.

The key thing to remember is that you remove steel mostly from under where you put finger pressure in the blade.

With my coarsest stone (usually this is a medium stone if I am doing a maintenance thinning rather than a restorative thinning), I begin grinding with pressure high up the wide bevel (blade road), just below the shinogi. I am aiming to remove steel evenly along the shinogi. This has the effect if raising the shinogi. You want to raise the shinogi by the same amount that you want to remove steel just behind the ege, so that the edge and the shinogi move up in parallel and the width and shape of the blade road is maintained.

I then apply pressure just behind the edge, stopping just before I get a burr, or just after if I am aiming for a zero grind (with or without a microbevel).

I then wabble the knife between thes 2 angles to blend in the convexity of the bevel.

You can repeat this process with a fine/ polishing stone. If you don't like the finish that your polishing stone leaves (I hate the Chosera 3k's finish which is a multifaceted semi-mirror polish), you can use a natural or finish with fine sandpaper or even metal polish (careful of your fingers- easy to get cut with sandpaper or polish).

The final edge can be a zero grind if your steel can take it (hard simple carbon steels which will be used gently) or you can add a micro-bevel if the steel is more complex or too soft or you will be rough with the knife. Or you can finish with a double bevel sharpening (it should be thin enough behind the edge that you will only need a fine stone for this).

While this is a bit more complex than a flat grind, it's easier to do than it sounds. And easier than maintainig a non wide bevel's convexity. And your knife will love you back for it.

Hope this helps.

 

[demirtasem]

I may be using the wrong term there with rock chopping. I'm not thinking of anchoring the tip and leaning into it. I'm just talking about, like, the final chopping of garlic/ginger or mincing some meat. I want a relatively rugged knife where the weight is an asset, but we're not talking about anything abusive. If I want precision or smaller work, I'm using the Hinoura. If I need to chop bones or cut some frozen stuff I have a stupid-heavy cleaver and a couple of bread knives. I have a thin cleaver - maybe a Town Food Service #1? - that I've used on and off since like 2010 without incident. Let's assume for the purpose of this discussion that I would adapt cutting style appropriately to the knife.

A guy makes these cleavers from N690 steel. I don't know it's perfect for rock chopping, but I found it interesting.

 

[Blerghle]

That is something else! I think tap chopping is closer to what I was visualizing.

 

[Blerghle]

Not sure if it exactly fits the description, but went for the 240 Mazaki kasumi in BST. Pretty tall and heavy, didn't have to stretch the budget, sounds like they're pretty well regarded cutters.

 

[Benuser]

https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/suien-virgin-carbon-steel-chinese-cleaverSuien VC. Slightly curved, can be helpful as it is your first cleaver. Very even grinding and excellent steel.

 

[Blerghle]

https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/suien-virgin-carbon-steel-chinese-cleaverSuien VC. Slightly curved, can be helpful as it is your first cleaver. Very even grinding and excellent steel.

Part of the reason I went for a gyuto here is that I brought out my old cheap #1 cleaver - I think it's Town Food Service but not 100% sure - and it's very effective as a thin cleaver while not being a lightweight at 415g (approximately same as Suien VC). The steel is good enough to me, takes a good edge at least. Maybe some time way down the line I'll revisit a thicker cleaver though.