Help me complete my set

Discussion in 'Sharpening Station' started by twizeman, Oct 14, 2019.

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  1. Oct 14, 2019 #31

    twizeman

    twizeman

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    I like the idea, but right now i'm limited to getting maybe 2 stones and i'm leaning towards the 220 and 2k.
     
  2. Oct 14, 2019 #32

    M1k3

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    Forgive me if I missed it, but, do you not like your 1k stone? If you do, I'd say go 120-220 and something 300-500. Otherwise go for the 220 or even 120 and the 2k.
     
  3. Oct 14, 2019 #33

    calostro5

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    I have one Kuromaku 1000. I don't know if this is the same than pro, and this is the only good stone that I have used.
    Don't you like this stone, or Shapton pro in general?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  4. Oct 15, 2019 #34

    twizeman

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    Man you're making it too hard for me. I might end up getting them all :D. Anyway big thanks to all of you guys who put time and effort answering to this thread!
     
  5. Oct 15, 2019 #35

    kayman67

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    You might like it just because is more aggressive. I think you can understand better if you use this next to some 7-800 stones or maybe even lower as sometimes I saw it doing Naniwa Pro 600 work, making a bevel just as fast.
    It's definitely not my favourite for 1k spot (for razors I wouldn't touch it at all).
    I think even the guys at Shapton are aware of this with the 1000/1500/2000 cluster.

    I reiterate my purchase with all the data I have right now, Shapton Pro 120 and Nano hone 400. The 400 seems like the fastest and most consistent finisher in that range, making everything easier with all kinds of alloys, bevels. Unfortunately I haven't seen Pro 120 on Dictum. They have the Glass version, 35€.
     
  6. Oct 15, 2019 #36

    kayman67

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    As far as I am aware, that 1k you have is on the finer side of things. At some point, when it's gone, you can consider Shapton Pro 2000 or even Glass 3000. Seems like the jump from Nano hone 400 is just fine.
     
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  7. Oct 15, 2019 #37

    Chef Doom

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    When it comes to fixing knives medium grit stones generally do not last long. JKI has some harder stones in 400 range...but it will cost you.

    My advice...start charging for your services and keep a "Stone Replacement" jar filled or stop helping people fix their knives.
     
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  8. Oct 15, 2019 #38

    Chef Doom

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    I am Joe Biden and I approve of this message.
     
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  9. Oct 15, 2019 #39

    Chef Doom

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    The only exception would be for a slicer dedicated to raw meat. I find the 4k or 6k works well.
     
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  10. Oct 15, 2019 #40

    Chef Doom

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    As the Japanese say, gotta learn how to use the whole stone bro.
     
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  11. Oct 15, 2019 #41

    Alder26

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    I agree with this 100%. Get the lowest you can can, follow up with something really fast cutting like gesshin 400 or suehiro cerax 320. After those two you'll spend about 2min on 1K and a finisher and your golden.
     
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  12. Oct 15, 2019 #42

    Kristoffer Tyvik

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    Awesome, thanks for the recommendation! Looks like I know where the rabbit hole might lead next :)
     
  13. Oct 15, 2019 #43

    kayman67

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    At the end of the day, a lot of stones will work, some more suited to your style (I feel like above average pressure is used), some less. I've seen some people tend to embrace a style and judge things through the lens of it. With time you might do just that or embrace a bigger picture of sorts. I've discovered I like Beston 500x for Germans. Just finished some. Not only that it melts them with ease, but I don't use more material than necessary and get a very good edge. And for some reason this stone makes the easiest burr to work with (or the least and I have some idea why, but not definitely sure). Yesterday I used the Gesshin 400 for a couple of ZDP-189 bunkas. Effortless and able to shave hair right after (took out a few chips on both). I have one medium stone that's a mix of Shapton Glass 1000 to 3000 behaviour (also just as hard and the surface is very similar, no idea who made it), great as a next and final step. Naniwa Pro 400 and 600 are being used for setting bevels. They work so great that I was really surprised. You don't read about how fast and versatile they can be, from clean cut to a muddy behaviour. I do a large array of knives and it makes a difference to have the right stuff for the job. I am well aware that I could make most work somehow, but at my age it's all about making things easier on the long run. This doesn't mean that I don't play around. I go out of my way to see how different ideas might improve something, even for months.
    Now, funny enough as it might seem, I left them all out due to different reasons. That's because judging the info at hand, there seems to be an easier route with better options for what you might need. Definitely not the only one.

    And one more thing that matters, any experience makes you grow. Just don't overthink this. There is no absolute best for everyone and everything.
     
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  14. Oct 19, 2019 #44

    Stnakamu

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    I would be jea
     
  15. Oct 24, 2019 #45

    inferno

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    have they arrived yet??
     
  16. Oct 24, 2019 #46

    Kristoffer Tyvik

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    Thanks for asking! Yes and no. The 220 came in the mail from Cleancut last week, but the 2000 has turned out to be surprisingly hard to get. CC had them listed, but came back saying they were in fact out and weren’t expecting any anytime soon. Japanese Knife Company also had them listed, but sent a 2000 Glass by mistake, since they had also been out of 2000 Pros for a long while. They even told me they suspected Shapton weren’t making the 2000 Pro stones anymore, in favour of the 1500:s. Has anyone else heard anything similar?

    In any case, I’m now waiting for a packing which should be arriving from Germany tomorrow, with what I sincerely hope is a 2000 Pro.

    I like the 220 so far (with my limited experience). My fingertips less so, but that’s on me for my poor technique :confused: The stone is fast, and doesn’t seem to dish much. For its coarseness it still feels decent while it’s working off steel. More the feel of sandpaper on wood than taking a rusty file to my lovely Japanese (or in this case dirt cheap Chinese) steel, that I was expecting from a stone that coarse.
     
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  17. Oct 24, 2019 #47

    kayman67

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    Hm, there weren't that many 1500s around, but lots of 2000. It would be strange to stop the one best selling stone in favor of the other.
     
  18. Oct 25, 2019 #48

    inferno

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    i think cleancut and probably most other smaller shops only get one delivery from shapton each year thats why stuff run out. they probably order 50-100 or so of each stone i guess.

    both jkc and cc has 2 shops in stockholm so they might have some in the smaller shops on söder for instance. i dont know. jkc has a nice showroom type of store on söder last i was there. not big but quite nice.
    i got my 8k and 12k shappros from there. not that much stones there but they had what i wanted so.

    you could have kept the 2k glass, its very close to identical imo. i have had both of them for years and maaaaybe the glass feels just a tiny bit "better" and maaybe it wears a bit slower, but blindfolded i would not be able to tell them apart.
    I'm guessing the glass might be better for ultra hard SS/powder/HSS, maybe. both are very slow wearing stones though. its almost bizarre discussing their wear since its minimal at most.

    i think you're gonna like the 2k pro. one of my absolute fav stones (the 2k glass too).

    ---------

    the 220 is like a double edged sword. for edges and chips and such you dont need to use high pressure and it works very fast. release almost no abrasives.
    for flattening a whole bevel (blades are always concave off the bigwheels they use in japan) you can put as much pressure as you want on it to speed things up. and then it starts releasing abrasive, and if you dont flush it off and just drip on water to keep it wet it breaks down to finer grit. and then you get a much finer surface than you would get off a clean stone. slower grinding but finer finish.

    I ground 2 scandi blades on mine yesterday and and i could have stopped there on the 220. it was good enough imo.
     
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  19. Oct 25, 2019 #49

    Kristoffer Tyvik

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    From what I hear, you are probably right in that the glass would have been just as good for my very average use. It was mostly that so many said good things about the pro that I wanted to give it a try (and maybe that the relative scarcity made it more appealing).

    Living on that other, saltier coast, it was a while since I visited Stockholm, but I am looking forward to next time family obligations etc allow for some travelling, to stop by the brick and mortars. The internet gives access to a tremendous assortment of knives, but not getting to try before buying is a bit limiting.

    Next on the stone front might be that Kitayama 4000 that I think you may have mentioned IIRC? The description on Cleancut’s page makes it sound very appealing. What would you say sets it apart from for example a Pro 5000? Does it give an edge on the bitier or smoother side?
     
  20. Oct 25, 2019 #50

    inferno

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    I have not used the 5k pro, its the only pro except from the 120 i dont have, but my coworker has it and he says its just as hard as the rest of the shappros. just a finer grit than the 2k for example. he has also borrowed and tested pretty much all my 30 or so stones. so i trust him.

    if you have a 5k pro i see no real need for a kit 4k, not talking the resulting edge at least.
    i have a 4 and 6k glass though and compared to them its not as aggressive feeling, feels very smooth and silky in general. also feels a bit softer and more forgiving. but i noticed yesterday that you can easily cut into the surface of it if you have a sharp corner on you blade, i did some small scandis on it. this is not a big problem with kitchen knives though since you only have the edge or a big flat side.
    but you can accidentally gouge/cut slivers off this stone with your edge, which you definitely can't do on any shaptons no matter how hard you try.

    its a resin/plastic bound stone and the shaptons use some type of ceramic like magnesium oxide or similar as binder for the grit. lets just say they are very different in buildup. its also a bit slower than glass 4/6k for example and this can be both a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you see things.

    smooth feeling, kinda soft (but its not really that soft), feels forgiving. handles powder and hss. its a good stone imo. almost true splash and go. no need to soak it at least.

    the edge will be very similar to the 5k pro, but they 5k pro probably takes more skill to get there because of its hardness. its the same with all hard stones really. they dont cover up mistakes.
     
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  21. Oct 25, 2019 #51

    Kristoffer Tyvik

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    Wow, thanks for taking the time to get into the details! Much appreciated.

    Sorry, just me not being very clear; no pro 5000 in the collection I’m afraid.

    The closest I have is the 6000 side on the Ohishi combo stone. The feel is nice and smooth and all, but for me it’s difficult to get an edge which deals well with tomatoes and peppers off of it. I figure maybe the 4000 Kit gives a more useful edge, with a bit more bite.

    That said, I’m really looking forward to testing out the 2000. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out to be well and good enough for most of my sharpening.
     
  22. Oct 25, 2019 #52

    inferno

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    try out your 2k when it arrives and if you can work with the hardness and dont feel its too hard i think the glass 4k might be an overall better performing stone. or the 6k.
    the 5k will be similar i suppose.

    for me i get no hesitation at all on the 4 and 6k on tomatos. it just slides right through like it wasn't even there. 8k some hesitation. 12k no hesitation, even on "coarse grained " d2 steel. this is with the pros.

    but as with almost everything its usually not the arrow, its the indian... practice makes perfect. and i see no real need for fine stones unless you can cram out the most of your coarser ones.

    a general tip is to go lighter and lighter as you finish on your stone, to finish at almost no pressure at all on the stone. this makes a very very big difference in your resulting edge compared to just mashing away.
    i also do alternating side swipes when actually finishing a blade on the stones. flip the blade each swipe. look at "sharpening with bob kramer" on youtube and you'll understand what i'm talking about. less and less pressure each swipe.
     
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  23. Oct 25, 2019 #53

    inferno

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    Also if you feel sometime you would need a good 1k i have a jns and a king hyper (hard version). and i only need 1 of them since they do almost the exact same thing. used minimally. both are soakers. just let me know.
     
  24. Oct 26, 2019 #54

    Kristoffer Tyvik

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    Thank you, that’s a very kind offer, especially considering how limited the used market is around here. I’ll give the 2k a solid go and see if I feel there’s a need for something nicer in between.

    Really appreciate the tips as well! No doubt there’s quite a bit of “Indian” to be improved before gear is the actual limiting factor. Doesn’t mean new toys aren’t fun though... :D
     
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  25. Oct 26, 2019 #55

    kayman67

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    Today I had to sharpen one Aritsugu AUS10 gyuto and decided to do some back and forth with Shapton Pro 2k and Glass 2k.
    The stones feel similar, but with a few differences after all, that should be consider only with this knife.
    G2 loaded a bit. Nothing to hinder performance, but not able to clean the surface only with water and my hand. P2 cleaned just fine.
    G2 was faster. Did this several times and every time got a burr faster on either side.
    G2 didn't feel as smooth, but polished a tad more. The finish was brighter.
    Grit wise they should be the same.
    Maybe, just maybe, the G2 edge got a bit better. Didn't cut that much after either, though. Might be just a feeling.
    Every time I finished with edge leading barely touching the stone.
     
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  26. Oct 26, 2019 #56

    Ktva

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    hiomakivi.fi has Shapton Kuromaku 2000 in stock, isn’t it the same stone as pro? I suppose they are also delivering anywhere in Europe.
     
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  27. Oct 27, 2019 #57

    Kristoffer Tyvik

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    Good stuff! It’s at least my understanding that they are the same.

    A4F84AA3-8D93-49FA-B2AD-9E01442078A5.jpeg
     
  28. Oct 27, 2019 #58

    KingShapton

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    They are the same!
     
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  29. Oct 28, 2019 #59

    Kristoffer Tyvik

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    It’s probably time to say sorry for completely high jacking this thread... ...or far too late. Sorry to the OP in any case! I hope some of these rambling end up being of some use to you as well.

    In any case, the kids finally fell asleep in good time today. “...and much sharpening of knives was done.” I can see why people like the pro 2k. Hard yet smooth feeling.

    The biggest take away was probably how big of a difference knife steel etc. makes though. My lovely Hinoura AS Nakiri had a nice even burr in 5-10 strokes per side, and was rid of it again in about as many alternating passes plus a swipe through cork. That great little knife holds an edge forever, so this was only the second time it met the stones (or a stone in this case). Truth be told it didn’t really need it, but we are allowed to sharpen for fun too right? Doing so was a great reminder that with quality steel (HT etc) all the tips from @JBroida ‘s videos, and above, really make sense. Thanks again!
     
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