Help me pick a Santoku

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Panzo721

Member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Messages
14
Reaction score
3
Location
California
LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA
KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Santoku
Are you right or left handed?
Right Handed
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either. But more towards Japanese
What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
165-180mm
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes stainless. Looking for Sg2/r2
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
Under $250 prefer. Possibly $300 if you think it is worth it.
KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home
What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Mainly prep work
What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Just looking to get one
What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Chop and push sometimes rock
What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
N/A
Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
N/A
Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
N/A
Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
N/A
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Awhile
KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Wood. But looking to switch to a hasegawa board in the near future
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I'm interested in these at the moment but if you have any other recommendation I will gladly take a look.
1. Yu Kurosaki Senko R2/SG2 Hammered Santoku Japanese Knife 165mm with Shitan Handle
2. Kurosaki Shizuku R2 Santoku 170mm
3. Takamura Migaki R2 Santoku 170mm
4. Yu Kurosaki Juhyo R2/SG2 Hammered Santoku Japanese Knife 165mm with Shitan (ferrule: Red Pakka wood) Handle
5. Makoto Sakura SG2 Santoku 165mm

Thanks for the help.
 
Don't know why the link for 2,3,and 5 are not working. Maybe I'm not allowed to link to that site?
 
Yes the link is for CKTG. So out of all the options I included plus the one M1k3 suggested, is the only thing that separate them apart from each other is just cosmetic? How do you determine the performance of a knife without using it first? They're all using the same steel. I guess it depends on the knife maker but how else do I go about picking one?
 
I haven't actually used any of the knives listed. I have a Takamura gyuto though. They are good lasers. Not the greatest food release, but very thin behind the edge and up to the spine. Great cutters.

I've heard the Syousin Suminagashi has good food separation and release for it's thinness.

I haven't really heard anything bad about either Kurosaki brother. Some really like them. Others don't care for them. But no real complaints.
 
Panzo721 said:
I guess it depends on the knife maker but how else do I go about picking one?
Click to expand...
That also seems to be the main problem to me. If you can find a knife dealer near you where you can take the time to look at and hold the knife, that'd help you a lot. I went to a dealer yesterday, hoping to be able to do this, but it was so busy that I just didn't feel comfortable taking my time there. Especially as I didn't intent to buy anything expensive right then and there (I need to sleep on it before I make a bigger purchases). I did buy a Victorinox Fibrox there, but I intended to do that anyway.

Anyway, try to see if there is a knife dealer not too far from you. After that you'll have to check whether they're open, what with corona and all. Hopefully if they are, they'll provide you the opportunity to hold some knives and take your time in deciding what you want. Because to me, that's what it comes back to. Without having the knife physically in hand, it's so hard to judge what to pick.
 
Kurosaki's food release is not particularly good cuz it is a flat grind
 
You may consider a 180mm gyuto as well. With most, tip is only a bit higher than with santokus, but enough not to get damaged with forward motions.
 
Out of interest, why do you want a knife in SG2/R2?

The difference between different knives comes down to (in rough order of importance):
1) The grind (cross-sectional geometry). This determines how a knife performs. A knife may be thin, thick or in between.
Thicker knives can incorporate grind features such as convexity that improve a knife's food release and reduce stiction in wet foods, meaning better performance in wet foods but they can wedge a little in hard foods. But the knifemaker has to do a good job of incorpotating those grind features into the knife. Otherwise you end up with a Wustoff grind.
Thinner knives go through hard produce (sweet potato) easily but they can get stuck a bit in wet foods. But the knifemaker has to make sure that the knife is thin behind the edge for this to work. Otherwise you end up with a Victorinox grind.
2) The heat treatment of the steel. A complex process that determines the somewhat interrelated propeties of sharpenability, sharpening feel, burr tenacity, edge retention, hardness (which determines how well it will hold a fine angled edge) and toughness.
3) The profile (shape viewed from the side) of the knife. This is important for ergonomics, as well as which cutting motions are easier or harder.
4) The handle. Some can be quite pretty. And add a lot to how much you pay.
5) The blade finish. This includes decorations such as damascus, nashiji and tsuchime (hammered) finishes, as well as the degree if polishing of the blade face and the degree of easing or even rounding of spine and choil.
6) The steel itself. Determines sharpenability, sharpening feel, burr tenacity and edge retention BUT the heat treatment of the steel is usually more important than the steel itself. Having said that, SG2 will almost always have longer edge retention than a simple steel like white2.
7) Special heat treatments such as honyaki add a lot to the cost because of the high failure rate and the high level of skill required to pull it off.

All of these features take labour and skill (and pretty handles may need expensive wood) and add to the cost of the knife. Of course some knives are heavily hyped and thus cost more than they otherwise would. Some mass produced brands have a huge marketing machine behind them and you tend to get less bang for your buck with these knives.
 
Of the knives that you are considering, I am familiar with the Kurosaki Shizuku and the Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi (both in 270mm gyuto form, not sure how well this relates to santokus). The Shizuku gyuto has a moderately flat profile (other Kurosakis such a Syousin Chiku are much more curved) and the Syousin Suminagashi has a moderately curved profile. Having said that, santoku profiles all tend to be fairly flat.

Shizuku is a wide bevel with slightly concave bevels. There is a fairly unique hammered pattern that I think is called "diamond damascus" above the bevel. There is a little spine taper, mostly in the handle 1/3 or the blade. It is an almost laser thin knife behind the edge but the spine is more like a middleweight. It behaves like a thin knife but the thicker spine means that the blade feels robust and doesn't flex but there is a hint of wedging in very tall hard foods. It's a while since I sharpened it but IIRC, it was not terribly difficult. Edge retention is pretty long (in my home use, with too many other gyutos to play with). The spine and choil are comfortably eased but not rounded. The stock handle was rosewood but mine shipped with ebony which looks nice. It's a good value thinner knife with a middleweight spine.

Syousin Suminigashi is a tall knife with a convex blade face which is covered in a quite restrained damascus (suminagashi) pattern. Damascus looks nice but can be a bit of a pain when it comes to thinning (you need to re-polish and re-etch). It is a heavier knife than Shizuku although the spine is similar thickness. It has much better food release although it will wedge a little in hard foods. There is almost no taper. The spine and choil are eased (but can do with a bit more work- not as comfortable as Shizuku). It's so long since I sharpened it that I don't think I can still give a sensible comment on it. I don't think it was a problem. Edge retention is pretty significant. Stock handle is rosewood. James offers an upgraded version (Shinko Kurokumo) with rounded spine and choil and nicer handle but I couldn't find a santoku last I looked. It's a great value middleweight (and would be even without the damascus cladding).

You may wish to consider Ryusen Blazen. It's a yo handle. The 240mm gyuto has the most sublime balance in the hand. Spine and choil are comfortable. It's a thinner knife but not a laser and not flexy. The fit and finish is excellent. The tradeoff between thinness and food release is good. Sharpening is ok and edge retention pretty good. It's an excellent knife. If you weren't in a forum of knife nerds, it could easily be your lifetime knife.

If you are interested in SG2 you should look also at SRS15 knives. Generally a liitle easier to sharpen, maybe slightly improved edge retention. Tend to have soft claddings scratch easily. Examples include Gesshin Kagero, Akifusa and Harayuki. I have only used Akifusa. It performs similarly to Ryusen but withou the sublime balance and the fit and finish is not in the same league. I believe that the Gesshin Kagero has significantly improved fit and finish.
 
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If you are in LA, JKI sells Blazens (and of course Kageros). Not sure if you are allowed to go shopping yet in Calif?

Its also worth looking at KnS (Oz site, not avail on the US site) Ryusen "supergold" line. These appear to be basically Blazens without the fit and finish (handle is still ok). They need spine and choil easing and they are not anywhere near as highly polished. But a bit cheaper.
 
Nemo said:
If you are in LA, JKI sells Blazens (and of course Kageros). Not sure if you are allowed to go shopping yet in Calif?

Its also worth looking at KnS (Oz site, not avail on the US site) Ryusen "supergold" line. These appear to be basically Blazens without the fit and finish (handle is still ok). They need spine and choil easing and they are not anywhere near as highly polished. But a bit cheaper.
Click to expand...
No shopping yet in L.A. county. If JKI were in Orange County it'd be ok...
 
Thank you Nemo for taking your time to write all that. I really appreciate it. I’m still on lockdown right now so can’t go to any stores yet. Does jki have a physical store you can go in? I’ll probably check it out when all this is over. I’m about 90 minutes or so away. Would definite prefer handling and feeling the knife first.
 
Panzo721 said:
Thank you Nemo for taking your time to write all that. I really appreciate it. I’m still on lockdown right now so can’t go to any stores yet. Does jki have a physical store you can go in? I’ll probably check it out when all this is over. I’m about 90 minutes or so away. Would definite prefer handling and feeling the knife first.
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Although I haven't been there, I'm pretty sure that there is a physical store. Very solid reputation for customer service and helping you to find the right knife too. And a bit of a Mecca in the knife nerd world, so def worth the trip when things settle down a bit.
 
Panzo721 said:
Thank you Nemo for taking your time to write all that. I really appreciate it. I’m still on lockdown right now so can’t go to any stores yet. Does jki have a physical store you can go in? I’ll probably check it out when all this is over. I’m about 90 minutes or so away. Would definite prefer handling and feeling the knife first.
Click to expand...
They have a physical store in Beverly Hills. You can't visit it yet. I hear maybe after July 4th?
 
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