High Carbide Steel Sharpening Thread
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Is it a matter of debate really? Or more one of "easy availability" to one's progression unless buying a few stones each step of the way into specialized steels or just trying to get there with what's at hand.
And then again Science of Sharp had noted cleaner results using lower grits diamonds, less and less obvious going up in grits, though still cutting at higher grits where burnishing occurs with softer abrasives. Possibly cBN behaves the "same way" to some extent of readily showing results, and these are 400 grits results. Then again, it's CPM 15V so something else entirely
Not saying it's not right... just saying it's still not all that can be said. I'd be more interested in tests juxtaposing the best you can get out of each kind of stones. Still not conclusive but I'd be interested to see.
And then again Science of Sharp had noted cleaner results using lower grits diamonds, less and less obvious going up in grits, though still cutting at higher grits where burnishing occurs with softer abrasives. Possibly cBN behaves the "same way" to some extent of readily showing results, and these are 400 grits results. Then again, it's CPM 15V so something else entirely
Not saying it's not right... just saying it's still not all that can be said. I'd be more interested in tests juxtaposing the best you can get out of each kind of stones. Still not conclusive but I'd be interested to see.
Ive seen plenty of people debate it.
And in todays age, someone could get diamond plates for just as cheap as any waterstone out there. Having one of the small blue dmt coarse stones, is pretty much all someone would need to get a very nice edge on most of these steels, while taking out a lot of the trouble that comes with sharpening them.
I still remember someone brining me a cpm 10v knife a while back, before i knew anything about this. I tried to sharpen it for them on my chosera 800, which was what i used for pretty much anything i had gotten to sharpen at the time. It was like i was rubbing it on a wet piece of glass. I cant remember how long it took to get a burr but it seemed like it must have been at least 20 minutes if not longer. It didnt help that the knife was extremely dull, but still.
Had i have used something with like a diamond plate, it would have been the same as sharpening a normal steel. At least thats my experience now, when sharpening them using diamonds.
I certainly think anyone that can afford a knife with these steels can afford one diamond plate at the very least.
Affordability isn’t necessarily my point. Just not caring until I’ll have to.
And I’d still be more interested with comparative results on a few steels on a bit wider scale of grits.
Obviously I’ve not had to sharpen steels with high Vanadium contents yet. Which is why I’d like to see a bit more comparisons made. Where I’m concerned ~67RC HAP 40 was the most difficult but entirely doable with conventional stones.
I’m not saying it isn’t right. But I think the debate has been settled by those that sharpen a lot of high Vanadium steels a long time ago, that nBC or diamonds are more efficient and producing better edges.
I think the debate is more towards how much better with a certain steel up to what grits compared with what one can do with conventional stones. People already have those and make do with them. One steel at one grit isn’t saying anything much we didn’t know.
And I’d still be more interested with comparative results on a few steels on a bit wider scale of grits.
Obviously I’ve not had to sharpen steels with high Vanadium contents yet. Which is why I’d like to see a bit more comparisons made. Where I’m concerned ~67RC HAP 40 was the most difficult but entirely doable with conventional stones.
I’m not saying it isn’t right. But I think the debate has been settled by those that sharpen a lot of high Vanadium steels a long time ago, that nBC or diamonds are more efficient and producing better edges.
I think the debate is more towards how much better with a certain steel up to what grits compared with what one can do with conventional stones. People already have those and make do with them. One steel at one grit isn’t saying anything much we didn’t know.
Same here. Whenever I decide I have to have a knife that needs diamond plates I'll get diamond plates. Until then I have more knives and stones than I can use in a lifetime that I'm perfectly happy with.
Well. This is a thread about sharpening high vanadium carbide steels.
I would also like to see more comparison done. Because i would think with the tests the science of sharp did. Sharpening on a diamond plate, is more like sharpening with sandpaper, than sharpening on a stone.
I think if diamond abrasives were going to be testes as an abrasive, against the softer ones, a test using resin bonded, or vitrified diamond stones would be more appropriate.
Diamond plates in general arent really known for giving fine finishes, but i do find they actually can give really nice bitey edges. Particularly for something general purpose.
As far as tests go. Its anecdotal, but all the people ive seen doing things like rope cut, or cardboard cut tests, when using steels with pretty much any amount of mc carbide, tended to get better results when finishing with diamond abrasives. So i would think hap 40 would fall under that.
Besides just that part, when your sharpening. Having to take more time on a given stone. Introduces more chance to round the apex. Leading to a duller end result.
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Again, as I said I do not disagree with any of it. Or that this is the right thread for it - and well yours as well.
From the start my point being that the real debate is to go deeper into this comparison. Otherwise and for my needs another single example doesn’t answer anything more than what I already know, and still doesn’t drive me to buy cBN or diamonds. So the title Debate is finally over… well it’s a bit sensational for something that’s been done before.
Anyways…
From the start my point being that the real debate is to go deeper into this comparison. Otherwise and for my needs another single example doesn’t answer anything more than what I already know, and still doesn’t drive me to buy cBN or diamonds. So the title Debate is finally over… well it’s a bit sensational for something that’s been done before.
Anyways…
I think that was probably kinda the point of the title. I mean, it is a social media post, the titles on them generally focus on grabbing peoples attention.
And i get what youre saying, which is why i said what the thread is about. Its for people wanting to sharpen these steels with mc carbide content. For someone with just a single blade that has them, that doesnt mind taking the extra effort to use traditional abrasives to sharpen it. I could see not wanting to get different stones.
I also agreed. I would like to see more research done into these comparisons. Just because im interested to see whats actually going on, that cant just be picked up with my pocket microscope looking at the apex.
Id also like to see someone with a catra tester, test these edges, using mules with matching dimensions, and materials.
Along with a few more tests, into related things. Like the still ongoing debate some people have about sharpening using belt grinders, vs belt grinders with water misted, vs stones, vs something like the tormek.
A real test with as many variables taken out as possible would be what is going to make the biggest difference to what people decide to do.
I don't think the debate is over or will be over even after the proof is shown, many people are just too set in their ways.
Anecdotally, many get better edges on high alloy steels with quality diamonds and cbn stones, especially with non electroplate type "stones" as these tend to create deeper scratches and put more stress on the edge. Moreover, many claim that at lower grit conventional stones work as well as diamond and cbn stones on high alloy steels because the abrasive is larger than the MC carbides, so it is absolutely appropriate for Shawn to show that even at 400 grit cbn works better than SiC on a steel like 15V. If anything at higher grit it should work even better.
Here's some material that might answer some of the questions raised.
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/08/does-sharpening-with-a-grinder-ruin-your-edge/
Anecdotally, many get better edges on high alloy steels with quality diamonds and cbn stones, especially with non electroplate type "stones" as these tend to create deeper scratches and put more stress on the edge. Moreover, many claim that at lower grit conventional stones work as well as diamond and cbn stones on high alloy steels because the abrasive is larger than the MC carbides, so it is absolutely appropriate for Shawn to show that even at 400 grit cbn works better than SiC on a steel like 15V. If anything at higher grit it should work even better.
Here's some material that might answer some of the questions raised.
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/08/does-sharpening-with-a-grinder-ruin-your-edge/
I have the JKI diamond set with the 1k and 6k stones and I really like them. I'd like to round them out by adding a fast cutting low grit diamond or CBN stone but I haven't been able to find any that aren't very expensive. I'd love a full set of the BBB stones, but they're unfortunately outside my budget. I've mostly resorted to using the DMT diamond plates, but they feel and sound like murder. I guess the finer ones (red/green) aren't terrible, but the coarser (blue/black) ones are unpleasant. Nice for sharpening tools and lawnmower blades, but not for doing chip repair on some HAP40, if you know what I'm saying.
Ive read that, but people still refute what larrin posted because the grinder used wasnt a 2x72 with variable speed. In fact i saw a huge argument over the topic on bladeforums recently. People cited roman landes, and other things. (Side not: i had no idea those kinds of heats were being potentially created by just using your hand with dry sandpaper. Apparently, the surface about 1-3 microns deep can reach 2000 degrees Celsius, which is super relevant when talking about sharpening.)
I personally wouldnt want to use a grinder for sharpening, even with a great water cooled system
But yes. If hand sanding these steels has taught me anything first hand. Its that even coarse grits will not efficiently remove material. The difference when using cubitron, or wetordry vs diamond microfinishing film to sand them. Is astonishing.
I would have to see all the details and validations of the test plan that shows hand sanding can create temps of 2kC. That's well past melting temps. Also, I do not miss BF.
Traditional whetstone ceramics simply cannot cut vanadium carbides. They are softer than the carbides. Nothing about anyone's personal tales of experiences can change physics. Yes you can scoop out enough matrix to drag the carbides out at lower grits and give the appearance of sharpening but it will slow down as you move up. Folks are also not doing their ceramics any good with high carbide steels.
I still don't understand why so many out there have such strong feelings about how their ceramic stones can cut all those fancy steels just fine? If one wants to wander into the world of high carbide steels like 10V, K390, etc. then fully commit and get the right tools to maintain them.
I mean, that's what we do with all our other sharp stuff right?
Also, just generalizing, not directing that at anyone in the thread.
Traditional whetstone ceramics simply cannot cut vanadium carbides. They are softer than the carbides. Nothing about anyone's personal tales of experiences can change physics. Yes you can scoop out enough matrix to drag the carbides out at lower grits and give the appearance of sharpening but it will slow down as you move up. Folks are also not doing their ceramics any good with high carbide steels.
I still don't understand why so many out there have such strong feelings about how their ceramic stones can cut all those fancy steels just fine? If one wants to wander into the world of high carbide steels like 10V, K390, etc. then fully commit and get the right tools to maintain them.
I mean, that's what we do with all our other sharp stuff right?
Also, just generalizing, not directing that at anyone in the thread.
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People refute all sorts of things pointing out that the test scenario is not exactly their scenario and therefore the whole finding is wrong. Especially in the knife community it sometimes feels like science doesn‘t exist and that knives are made out of some mystical, magic material that is impossible to figure out. There are a lot of variables, but some conclusions can be made even if the test done does not precisely mirror what the user does. CATRA is bad because It doesn’t cut tomatoes, abrasive tests are bad because the grit is wrong, or the method of sharpening is incorrect or any other reason. In the meantime people claim they can melt steel by hand sharpening, how we’ve been able to sharpen anything is a mystery since we should just be melting our edges or at the very least soften them to unusable levels, the fact it doesn’t happen should probably tell us something
It just boggles my mind when some claim to not need diamonds for high alloy steels and at the same time claiming that these steels don’t get as sharp as low alloy steels and that their edges don’t really last much longer either.
In any case I know what I will use to sharpen if I manage to get me a 15v knife.
Venev 80 + 240 from Hapstone? Or 80 + 150 from Gritomatic?
I haven't used them. I do plan on buying the 80 + 240 at some point though.
Yeah. Ive been wanting to get one if those also.
I recently saw a bonded diamond stone on sharpening supplies. Made by nanohone. Super affordable (less than 100 usd). Im interested in that one. I cant remember what grit it was. I believe it was in the 140-240 range.
Yeah. The magnacut pass around thread was something i think should have been an eye opener. When the people are consistently saying they arent able to get the knife very sharp, using a shapton 2k.People refute all sorts of things pointing out that the test scenario is not exactly their scenario and therefore the whole finding is wrong. Especially in the knife community it sometimes feels like science doesn‘t exist and that knives are made out of some mystical, magic material that is impossible to figure out. There are a lot of variables, but some conclusions can be made even if the test done does not precisely mirror what the user does. CATRA is bad because It doesn’t cut tomatoes, abrasive tests are bad because the grit is wrong, or the method of sharpening is incorrect or any other reason. In the meantime people claim they can melt steel by hand sharpening, how we’ve been able to sharpen anything is a mystery since we should just be melting our edges or at the very least soften them to unusable levels, the fact it doesn’t happen should probably tell us something
It just boggles my mind when some claim to not need diamonds for high alloy steels and at the same time claiming that these steels don’t get as sharp as low alloy steels and that their edges don’t really last much longer either.
In any case I know what I will use to sharpen if I manage to get me a 15v knife.
The memory of red rooster sharpening or whatever his name is comes to mind. Him claiming to be able to get these steels just as sharp with his arkansas stones, in one of his videos.
It's been a good while but I think his assertion was about honing on a lapped/smoothed black Ark. Still, made no sense.
Here is a respective quote from Landes, if that helps:
“Grinding generates energy (heat) and every step of sharpening is
grinding even the strop. This heat can be sucked away by the right
coolant such as water. If the grinding action lacks the coolant,
the heat goes mostly into the torn out part and the body (blade/edge)
it was torn off. It becomes obvious to see the induced energy when you
see the sparks fly (Burning steel!!).
Depending on how hard you go over the piece the more energy is induced
the hotter it gets, thats basic physics. Than the guys come and say
but I can do it so sensitive that the edge will not suffer and I’m
dipping the blade each run into cold water…. Well that is a nice
effort, but when it comes down to the very edge this tiny fraction
is overheated faster, than the eye can see or the wrinkled fingers
can feel. Unfortunately the edge becomes thinner the close you come
to the very edge/point means generated heat will get jammed in the tip.
In addition to that tempering colors that would visually proof this are
ground away immediately when they appear. and Stainless steels need
a higher temperature to generate tempering colors and longer time to
build them up. Nevertheless one can do metallurgical examination that
can proof the issue testing micro hardness There are some old german
study’s that examined this issue in the very detail.
I had a book dedicated to general grinding methods, in this book i found
a test application. A normal steel block apx. 2″x2″x4″ that had a
large number of highly sensitive thermocouples integrated in the surface.
The block was slit dry by hand over a 1000grit grinding paper. The peak
temps measured, walked up to 2000°C for split seconds in the very
surface (some microns). Of course the block did not melt since the
volume fraction of induced heat was to tiny to affect such a large solid
piece of steel. But the effect was there and proofen. In a edge we just
talk about some microns of material, here the effect is solid an clear.
Every manufacturer of razorblades knows this and does excessive cooling
whilst grinding and polishing edges, that need to hold an super sharp
edge for very long. It seems just some the magic makers out of the
custom knife scene think, the physical principles like this, do not
apply to them….”
this is the quote from roman landes that was posted on bladeforums. I would probably need to be able to read german to find the original source. Ill look more.
“Grinding generates energy (heat) and every step of sharpening is
grinding even the strop. This heat can be sucked away by the right
coolant such as water. If the grinding action lacks the coolant,
the heat goes mostly into the torn out part and the body (blade/edge)
it was torn off. It becomes obvious to see the induced energy when you
see the sparks fly (Burning steel!!).
Depending on how hard you go over the piece the more energy is induced
the hotter it gets, thats basic physics. Than the guys come and say
but I can do it so sensitive that the edge will not suffer and I’m
dipping the blade each run into cold water…. Well that is a nice
effort, but when it comes down to the very edge this tiny fraction
is overheated faster, than the eye can see or the wrinkled fingers
can feel. Unfortunately the edge becomes thinner the close you come
to the very edge/point means generated heat will get jammed in the tip.
In addition to that tempering colors that would visually proof this are
ground away immediately when they appear. and Stainless steels need
a higher temperature to generate tempering colors and longer time to
build them up. Nevertheless one can do metallurgical examination that
can proof the issue testing micro hardness There are some old german
study’s that examined this issue in the very detail.
I had a book dedicated to general grinding methods, in this book i found
a test application. A normal steel block apx. 2″x2″x4″ that had a
large number of highly sensitive thermocouples integrated in the surface.
The block was slit dry by hand over a 1000grit grinding paper. The peak
temps measured, walked up to 2000°C for split seconds in the very
surface (some microns). Of course the block did not melt since the
volume fraction of induced heat was to tiny to affect such a large solid
piece of steel. But the effect was there and proofen. In a edge we just
talk about some microns of material, here the effect is solid an clear.
Every manufacturer of razorblades knows this and does excessive cooling
whilst grinding and polishing edges, that need to hold an super sharp
edge for very long. It seems just some the magic makers out of the
custom knife scene think, the physical principles like this, do not
apply to them….”
this is the quote from roman landes that was posted on bladeforums. I would probably need to be able to read german to find the original source. Ill look more.
Could have been. I just vaguely remember it.
Man. Cliff stamp .coms payments lapsed. Thats sad. I knew he passed away. I had hoped it would some how get kept open. I know he had a ton of information on that site. I may not have agreed with everything cliff stamp said all the time, but still. I know he had a lot of worthwhile things there.
All of the above pretty much what I said from the onset. All I’ve ever seen much eveywhere is comparing lower grits. It’s all good that it’s the most competitive segment. It’s all good that even there we have clear indicators with efficiency. I’m not « stuck » into any old ways (sharpening since barely two years and a half).
I’ve got stones and they made do. I’m not intending to be satisfied with any leveling edge out of any 400 grits. What I need to see from folks much better experienced and equipped than me is results as compared with any so skills they’ll put into regular abrasives on a telling enough range of grits.
30x the time spent? At HAP 40 levels 2 mins to 60 minutes is squarely ludicrous. 10x times at worst - say VG-10 vs White #2 or HAP 40 vs Victorinox kind of strain. 30x times still ridiculous.
Unless… I’ve said already… I’ve not had to deal with serious high V pms.
Otherwise sue me or something but I see no point spending a dime more and nothing much that squares the real debate out here.
I’ve got stones and they made do. I’m not intending to be satisfied with any leveling edge out of any 400 grits. What I need to see from folks much better experienced and equipped than me is results as compared with any so skills they’ll put into regular abrasives on a telling enough range of grits.
30x the time spent? At HAP 40 levels 2 mins to 60 minutes is squarely ludicrous. 10x times at worst - say VG-10 vs White #2 or HAP 40 vs Victorinox kind of strain. 30x times still ridiculous.
Unless… I’ve said already… I’ve not had to deal with serious high V pms.
Otherwise sue me or something but I see no point spending a dime more and nothing much that squares the real debate out here.
If needed for you to fit it squarely into your playhouse roofs, I’ve shed the roof away two years ago and been good since. I don’t cry baby about it neither. I just got there thinking what stones do I have that do it?
I dont even think anyone here is arguing with you about this. Whats your problem?
Deadboxhero
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Hap 40 is not a high carbide, high vanadium steel.
Hap 40 only has 8% total carbide volume and only 2.5% of that is vanadium carbide.
CPM 15V is 23% Vanadium carbide volume, the steel is at 65rc tempered.
If you are up for it we could look at your edge under the microscope at high magnification and also test the sharpness.
Hap 40 only has 8% total carbide volume and only 2.5% of that is vanadium carbide.
CPM 15V is 23% Vanadium carbide volume, the steel is at 65rc tempered.
If you are up for it we could look at your edge under the microscope at high magnification and also test the sharpness.
Also. I will say about BF. Ive never really bothered looking into the most of the site. I just stick in the shoptalk section pretty much. I feel like that subforum is kinda secluded from the rest of the site. It has the same issues any other forum is going to, but at the same time it has people like, larrin, and devin thomas, Shawn houston ^, and others, at least in that part of the site.
For sure there are pockets of great discussion on there. I mainly haunted the Trad sub-forum and then when I ventured out to the general area I was tainted pretty quickly. But no doubt, it's important to be where the prominent players are conversing.
Okay, thanks. This is certainly one of those times when context matters.
Also, never watch Bark River finish their, um, knives.
Well now i have to go find it lolOkay, thanks. This is certainly one of those times when context matters.
Also, never watch Bark River finish their, um, knives.
Yeah. I don't think ive ever seen that part.
I checked out the sharpening section there, but it didn't look like there was anything for me there.
