High Grit Edges... Yeah Let's Talk About Them Some More. :)

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HumbleHomeCook

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I know, I know, high grit stones produce overly polished edges that aren't good for kitchen duties. I have this same belief. But is it always true?

For this discussion I'm thinking like above 4k.

Is there a point where you push past that, say at the real high grits?

I just see many people doing high grit sharpening and from to time I find myself re-asking if they are just looking for very short term wow factor or if there is something to it.

Are high grits, synth or otherwise, truly relegated to polishing duties? Is my Shapton 8k destined to remain the loneliest stone in my collection as it has been since shortly after arriving? :)
 
I know, I know, high grit stones produce overly polished edges that aren't good for kitchen duties. I have this same belief. But is it always true?

For this discussion I'm thinking like above 4k.

Is there a point where you push past that, say at the real high grits?

I just see many people doing high grit sharpening and from to time I find myself re-asking if they are just looking for very short term wow factor or if there is something to it.

Are high grits, synth or otherwise, truly relegated to polishing duties? Is my Shapton 8k destined to remain the loneliest stone in my collection as it has been since shortly after arriving? :)
My solution to this dilemma was to take up straight razor shaving.

The SG 16K and 30K make great deburring stones. Maybe the 8K is pretty good at that, too.

I could swear I read another angle on here somewhere: Make a really fine, perfect edge, then rough it up a bit with a lower grit. I have not explored this, but it's because I had forgotten until now, and I want to play around with it. Seems like there's potential there.
 
I think Shapton 8k is more of an 6k and this is ok for some good steel, especially single bevels.

The grit is not the problem, the lack of teeth of the edge might be one.

It totaly depends on the stuff you cut and how you cut. I like Yanagibas and even sujihikis very refined because i use them nearly without board contact, and no acidic stuff, no bell peppers no tomato, no garlic no onion. My to go Line knife is also very refined, and it is sadly the only one i use in service.

SirCutALot
 
This probably isn't the only factor but I've always suspected one reason why high-grit polished edges don't work super well on kitchen knives is just an inherent limitation of hand sharpening. As the stones get finer the material removal rate goes down which means that it takes more strokes to fully polish the edge and thus more chances for rounding to occur.
 
This probably isn't the only factor but I've always suspected one reason why high-grit polished edges don't work super well on kitchen knives is just an inherent limitation of hand sharpening. As the stones get finer the material removal rate goes down which means that it takes more strokes to fully polish the edge and thus more chances for rounding to occur.
i was just about to say the same thing:LOL:in fact I stopped typing my comment….
 
This probably isn't the only factor but I've always suspected one reason why high-grit polished edges don't work super well on kitchen knives is just an inherent limitation of hand sharpening. As the stones get finer the material removal rate goes down which means that it takes more strokes to fully polish the edge and thus more chances for rounding to occur.
This happens to me on a regular basis, although less frequent now, - just not good enough at it.

Sometimes I’ll play with a high grit natural for fun, but usually it stops somewhere in the way-too-big-jump of medium coarse to coarse finisher. BBW is the exception, the edge off of it is easily achieved and impressive.

I find the loss of initial crazy sharpness to be off putting.
 
My solution to this dilemma was to take up straight razor shaving.

The SG 16K and 30K make great deburring stones. Maybe the 8K is pretty good at that, too.

I could swear I read another angle on here somewhere: Make a really fine, perfect edge, then rough it up a bit with a lower grit. I have not explored this, but it's because I had forgotten until now, and I want to play around with it. Seems like there's potential there.
I might try this, a high grit polished edge with a low grit micro bevel? Toothy edge and smooth cutting?
 
This probably isn't the only factor but I've always suspected one reason why high-grit polished edges don't work super well on kitchen knives is just an inherent limitation of hand sharpening. As the stones get finer the material removal rate goes down which means that it takes more strokes to fully polish the edge and thus more chances for rounding to occur.

i was just about to say the same thing:LOL:in fact I stopped typing my comment….

This makes a lot of sense to me. @Deadboxhero was the first person I remember talking time-on-stone equaling more chances for error and requiring more diligence if you go that route. That's always kind of stuck with me and I've worked ever since to keep things to the effective minimum.

But I also know my own shortcomings so could easily see this causing me issues.
 
I usually keep my nakiri at 5k Shapton or suita. All the single bevels go all the way up to 8k/asagi. The gyutos and santokus get 5k too, but they are hap40/zdp so get less attention.

I think this low grit limitation you espouse is strange on Japanese knives.
 
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I usually keep my nakiri at 5k Shapton or suita. All the single bevels go all the way up to 8k/asagi. The gyutos and santokus get 5k too, but they are hap40/zdp so get less attention.

I think this low grit limitation you espouse is strange on Japanese knives.

2k-4k edges are quite common here on the forum.
 
As I’ve gotten better at sharpening I’ve grown more fond of refined edges finished entirely on stones. I used to finish most of my knives on 1-3k stones or natural equivalents and found that gave me the best results. Now I find as long as I’m diligent I can maintain plenty of tooth taking things up to naturals that are probably 8-10k+.
 
As I’ve gotten better at sharpening I’ve grown more fond of refined edges finished entirely on stones. I used to finish most of my knives on 1-3k stones or natural equivalents and found that gave me the best results. Now I find as long as I’m diligent I can maintain plenty of tooth taking things up to naturals that are probably 8-10k+.

Sure, sure, jump on the "you gotta get better at sharpening" wagon.

😁


In all seriousness, like I said, I can see this being a real factor and gives me something to work on.
 
I've used them. Can be nice and usable. But really depends on what you're cutting and how much of it.

Now, "hybrid edge" is something that works great for me. For example, get knife sharp on Glass 500, few passes on SP 12k👌
To be honest this is how I’ve gotten some of my most durable edges as well. I get a good edge on something fairly coarse or lower grit, do a little time on something high grit and I’m done. Something like Soft Ark or Washita and then jumping right to a Coticule leaves a killer edge that lasts a long time. For synthetics something like Shapton glass 220-500-4k or higher is great. Or another example being Chosera 400 right to 3k is really nice. Another another example is Shapton pro 1k which is really like 700-800 grit right to 8k or 12k. For Diamond plates I typically go 1k to 6k but to be honest with diamonds I never seem to have the issue with losing too much too. Same with naturals, always have enough tooth with using them. I find that if I go through a fairly tight progression of synthetics like say Chosera 400-1k-3k-5k I get an exceptionally clean and nice edge that lasts for like one shift at best. I can cut circles with it but it dies too fast. I’m using Chosera for reference here since I figure most folks are familiar with them :)

Same thing with a tight shapton progression, going glass 220-500-1k-2k-4k doesn’t give me nearly as long lasting or practical of an edge as 220-500-4k does. I do find some jumps can be a bit too big though, like 220-4k leaves a crazy bitey edge but almost too bitey and sticks to the board making rocking motions terrible or pull cutting. Jumping from 500-1k right to a finisher seems best for me at least. Below 500 it’s a bit too bitey excluding the Chosera 400 which is arguably finer than its grit states
 
To be honest this is how I’ve gotten some of my most durable edges as well. I get a good edge on something fairly coarse or lower grit, do a little time on something high grit and I’m done. Something like Soft Ark or Washita and then jumping right to a Coticule leaves a killer edge that lasts a long time. For synthetics something like Shapton glass 220-500-4k or higher is great. Or another example being Chosera 400 right to 3k is really nice. Another another example is Shapton pro 1k which is really like 700-800 grit right to 8k or 12k. For Diamond plates I typically go 1k to 6k but to be honest with diamonds I never seem to have the issue with losing too much too. Same with naturals, always have enough tooth with using them. I find that if I go through a fairly tight progression of synthetics like say Chosera 400-1k-3k-5k I get an exceptionally clean and nice edge that lasts for like one shift at best. I can cut circles with it but it dies too fast. I’m using Chosera for reference here since I figure most folks are familiar with them :)

Same thing with a tight shapton progression, going glass 220-500-1k-2k-4k doesn’t give me nearly as long lasting or practical of an edge as 220-500-4k does. I do find some jumps can be a bit too big though, like 220-4k leaves a crazy bitey edge but almost too bitey and sticks to the board making rocking motions terrible or pull cutting. Jumping from 500-1k right to a finisher seems best for me at least. Below 500 it’s a bit too bitey excluding the Chosera 400 which is arguably finer than its grit states
Try really low grit, followed by really high grit. Something like 220 -> 12k. You'll be surprised.
 
Try really low grit, followed by really high grit. Something like 220 -> 12k. You'll be surprised.
Well now I’ll have to check this out. You talking about a Shapton Pro 220 to Shapton Pro 12k then? Also you use this for carbon and stainless? I’m intrigued.

Also you touch up on the 12k then? I imagine hitting the 220 even once a week would cause some major metal loss pretty fast?

For me if I’m finishing on synthetics I might go Chosera 400-3k and be done. Then just touching up on the 3k once every couple days and hitting the 400 maybe 2x a month. This seems to save a lot of steel. On my Morihei I do 500-4k/6k and same concept.
 
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Well now I’ll have to check this out. You talking about a Shapton Pro 220 to Shapton Pro 12k then? Also you use this for carbon and stainless? I’m intrigued.

Also you touch up on the 12k then? I imagine hitting the 220 even once a week would cause some major metal loss pretty fast?

For me if I’m finishing on synthetics I might go Chosera 400-3k and be done. Then just touching up on the 3k once every couple days and hitting the 400 maybe 2x a month. This seems to save a lot of steel. On my Morihei I do 500-4k/6k and same concept.
I actually used a SP 120 instead of 220. Touching up is when I usually ditch the hybrid edge though (usually at work when I need a touch up and don't bring the 12k), washita, Venev 400 or 800, BBW, SG 4k, etc.
 
Low grit high grid kind of makes sense. You basically just debur on high grit and maybe a tiny bit of refinement. Especially if you don't spend much time on high grit. There is no way you can really remove 120 or 220 scratches with 12k unless you spend an ungodly amount of time on it, so all you are doing is deburing and a little refinement. I wonder what the edge like that looks like under magnification. Similar idea of low grit and diamond loaded strop.
 
I actually used a SP 120 instead of 220. Touching up is when I usually ditch the hybrid edge though (usually at work when I need a touch up and don't bring the 12k), washita, Venev 400 or 800, BBW, SG 4k, etc.
Ah okay that makes more sense then regarding touch ups and keeping the edge going during work. Yeah I like to touch up on a BBW or finish with one too or a Coticule. Sg 4k is great too
 
This probably isn't the only factor but I've always suspected one reason why high-grit polished edges don't work super well on kitchen knives is just an inherent limitation of hand sharpening. As the stones get finer the material removal rate goes down which means that it takes more strokes to fully polish the edge and thus more chances for rounding to occur.

That is one of the reasons I like a sharpening system - consistency of angle.
 
Ah okay that makes more sense then regarding touch ups and keeping the edge going during work. Yeah I like to touch up on a BBW or finish with one too or a Coticule. Sg 4k is great too
I only recently found the combination SG320 and SG4k working very well, and very fast, with various carbons, especially with AS and A#2. As far as I can see fully removing the 320 scratches, but leaving a terrific bite, if that makes sense — not so sure about that. Easy deburring with the 4k.
 
Naniwa 600 and Shapton 1.5k are all I use for work knives. Hasn't failed me in any kitchen yet
 
Sometimes I stop at 1k red clay brick because I'm lazy.

Sometimes I go from a 1k brick to finishing or stropping on a natural stone for light refining.

I did zero sharpening throughout the 2 years of COVID as I got fat a lazy and simply rotated my knives until I could no longer stand the lack of performance. Now I'm back to regularly maintaining my knives, cutting board and caste iron pans.

It's the refrigerator and oven cleaning that makes me long for eating out 😆
 
I like very fine natural edges. Okudo suita, black ark, tam o shanter, Llyn Idwal, etc. I think razor finishers make great deburring stones. Don't care much for synthetic edges in general, but especially above 4k or so. They have no soul. They stick in the cutting board and they don't have any tactile feeling when they go through food. I think "toothy" edges are overrated.
 
I know, I know, high grit stones produce overly polished edges that aren't good for kitchen duties. I have this same belief. But is it always true?

For this discussion I'm thinking like above 4k.

Is there a point where you push past that, say at the real high grits?

I just see many people doing high grit sharpening and from to time I find myself re-asking if they are just looking for very short term wow factor or if there is something to it.

Are high grits, synth or otherwise, truly relegated to polishing duties? Is my Shapton 8k destined to remain the loneliest stone in my collection as it has been since shortly after arriving? :)
I'm typing this before i bother to read anything. Because, i would rather just give my opinion and see what others have already said.

I think the reason complain of a lack of bit with high grit stones, is because they are likely rounding the apex in one way or another. Or maybe even not deburring properly because they cant feel the small burr left by high grit stones.

I think people might be putting too much pressure, not keeping consistent enough of an angle. Which is causing that.

I used to finish kitchen knives on my kitayama 8k, and king 6k quite often and i never had an issue with a lack of bite. It could cut a tomato just fine. And i havent really noticed that the edge is that much more inclined to bite into produce with the f400 venev edge, followed by stropping i use now.

At this point i feel like i just use that combination, because its fairly quick just to hit that stone, and strop, and im done. Then just strop it back to life as i go until i feel it needs the stones again.
 
My solution to this dilemma was to take up straight razor shaving.

The SG 16K and 30K make great deburring stones. Maybe the 8K is pretty good at that, too.

I could swear I read another angle on here somewhere: Make a really fine, perfect edge, then rough it up a bit with a lower grit. I have not explored this, but it's because I had forgotten until now, and I want to play around with it. Seems like there's potential there.
In a german forum they talked about going to 30k with a guided system and then using a jnat to produce the micro serations on the edge.


I think for hand sharpening (not guided) hitting the exact angle and polishing that on very high grit is basically impossible.
 
I know, I know, high grit stones produce overly polished edges that aren't good for kitchen duties.

I dont know about 'good'... that is really a matter of taste!

It is also task dependent. For example, you might not want an insanely sharp knife if you are removing silver skin... If your knife is 'too' sharp, you might find yourself slicing through the membrane frustratingly frequently. On the other hand, not that I would really know... I suspect sushi prep benefits from the sharpest edge you are willing to achieve.

It isn't so much that overly polished edges aren't 'good' for kitchen duties... I suspect many people just consider achieving them to be an inefficient usage of time. That tired management adage comes to mind: you complete the first 90% using 10% of your time; the final 10% takes the remaining 90% of your time. Food preparation is pretty taxing on highly refined edges. Unless you have delicate knife skills, an 8K edge might only last several minutes before it is indistinguishable from a 4K edge (if it is even discernable in the first place). So seeking out extreme edge refinement is a questionable investment of time if you don't have a specific reason for doing it! (e.g. deliberate and gentle cuts through sushi or slicing thin pieces of meat)



For anyone who has travelled the inevitable journey of reaching their limits on high grit stones, I'd encourage you to see how close you can get to that result on the next lower stone.... and then the next lowest... and so on. You might find that 4K is a level or two above your honest needs. My diet is dominated by vegetable prep. I find that a well done 1K edge is perfectly serviceable for me. Although I know I can potentially get a 'better' edge by using higher grits, I don't feel disadvantaged by the less refined edge. That said; over the years I have spent a fair amount of time thinning my favourite knives.

My knives aren't 'sharp'... they are thin behind the edge.

I used to maintain a secondary bevel. I did this because it is common advice. Also, by sharpening at the secondary bevel angle, you can keep the primary bevel looking nice. If you ever want to thin, restoring the finish of the primary bevel can be a lot of work. However, if you are willing to ignore aesthetics, then you can work on the primary bevel as often as you want. If you keep your knives thin behind the edge, a coarse stone can reset the primary bevel to a zero grind pretty quickly. I now do this almost every time I sharpen. With a zero grind, it doesn't take much work on a higher grit stone to establish a microbevel.

My progression is Cho 400 to Cho 1K or 3K. I hesitate to call this a hybrid edge. My impression is that hybrid edges finish on higher grit stones... That said, I think there is an overlap in concepts.
 
I like very fine natural edges. Okudo suita, black ark, tam o shanter, Llyn Idwal, etc. I think razor finishers make great deburring stones. Don't care much for synthetic edges in general, but especially above 4k or so. They have no soul. They stick in the cutting board and they don't have any tactile feeling when they go through food. I think "toothy" edges are overrated.
The black ark I agree on 100%, really nice finisher. Translucent ark is too. Haven’t tried too many of those other ones so can’t say on those but I’m definitely on team Ark. have a variety of sizes and types, probably more than I need actually.
 
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