Holding meringue

[GorillaGrunt]

Does anyone know how to make an Italian meringue that will hold and be pipeable without falling, separating or becoming grainy through 5 hours of service?? Ordinarily I’d think it’s user error, but my boss (one of the top chefs in Milwaukee) has also made the meringue and his doesn’t hold much better, nor has he suggested an adjustment to the methodology from his experience. That doesn’t mean that the method isn’t flawed, though, as we’re using the meringue recipe that we use for buttercream. So far it’s only good for three hours at the most.

I’ve spent my whole day off trying to engineer this; so far I’ve tried extra cream of tartar, cornstarch, gelatin, and adjusting with less syrup and more egg whites. Next batch will have some xanthan gum. It can hold either at room temperature or in a cooler as long as it will pipe smooth and stay upright after 4+ hours.

Otherwise, I’m going to suggest pasteurizing an egg white and sugar mixture in the sous vide and using an isi whipper - has anyone tried this?

Thanks all!

 

[HRC_64]

Google says it should hold for ~2 days (in fridge), but not sure if that's relevant or not to what you are doing.

Cover with clingfilm until ready to use. Italian meringue can be stored in the fridge for up to two days.

https://www.bbc.com/food/techniques/how_to_make_italian_meringue

 

[GorillaGrunt]

Thanks, I’m running a few batches stored cold and airtight to see if that helps. With the original recipe it deflates when chilled, but doesn’t separate as badly. Current batch - xanthan gum to hold it together, cream of tartar to offset the extra density, stored cold, and apparently since it’s hygroscopic airtight is better so maybe I’ll keep the pastry bag in a sealed container?

 

[nutmeg]

I'd let the Kitchen Aid work at lowest speed and room temperature until you begin the first desserts.

 

[Chuckles]

Your comment that the meringue can be grainy makes me think maybe the syrup isn’t getting hot enough? Should be 240F. Hard to trouble shoot without knowing more details.

Before messing with xanthum gum I would try using a Swiss meringue and see if you get a better result. Heat the whites and sugar together to 140F or just feel it with your fingers to make sure the sugar is dissolved and then whip until cooled and stiff. It’s worth a shot. Good luck.

 

[Alex M.S.]

My 2 cents:

All meringues will fall at some point. If you are using a meringue as is, plan on making a batch daily.

Italian meringues are the most stable, and has in my experience, lasts about 24 hours before needing to make a new one. Meringues are simply foams of egg whites and once the bubble structure starts to fail you get “separation”. This separation is really just the egg white returning to their pre-whipped shape. You will see that on the bottom of a quart container, a liquid of egg whites and on top you’ll still see something reminiscent of a meringue.

Xanthan gum and certainly not cornstarch or cream of tartar will do nothing to help. Xanthan is a hydrocolloid that will emulsify and thicken liquids. Xanthan does not work at high sugar concentrations like a meringue. Since you are not emulsifying anything in a meringue (remember that the bubble structure does all the work) xanthan in useless. Cornstarch and cream of tartar equally are useless.

If you want to not have to make a meringue everyday before service try using an ISI whipping siphon which manually injects a bubble structure into unwhipped whites within the canister. If it were me I’d just make a proper Italian meringue daily, super simply to make and cheap enough to throw away every service.

 

[WildBoar]

Your comment that the meringue can be grainy makes me think maybe the syrup isn’t getting hot enough? Should be 240F. Hard to trouble shoot without knowing more details.

Before messing with xanthum gum I would try using a Swiss meringue and see if you get a better result. Heat the whites and sugar together to 140F or just feel it with your fingers to make sure the sugar is dissolved and then whip until cooled and stiff. It’s worth a shot. Good luck.

Sorry for the temporary derailment, but Chuckles! How the heck have you been?

 

[GorillaGrunt]

My 2 cents:

All meringues will fall at some point. If you are using a meringue as is, plan on making a batch daily.

Italian meringues are the most stable, and has in my experience, lasts about 24 hours before needing to make a new one.... If it were me I’d just make a proper Italian meringue daily, super simply to make and cheap enough to throw away every service.

Ok, so we’re definitely doing something wrong. It sure looks like a proper meringue but won’t hold for more than a couple hours. I only need it to hold for one service but I need it to hold for the whole service.

We heat the syrup to 250F, 200g sugar, 50g water, 15g corn syrup, and add 25g of sugar per 4 whites to the mixer. Next trial I’m going to use caster sugar and add it after 1 minute of beating the whites.

Most of the chemistry tricks I’ve found deal with French meringue that is to be baked, but I figured I’d try them anyway. The grainy texture isn’t present initially- it develops after a few hours, and it’s almost certainly bubble failure.

The batch with the XG and CoT seemed to work better and whips back up a lot more quickly; using just the gum makes great Marshmallow fluff but isn’t quite meringue.

 

[Alex M.S.]

Ok, so we’re definitely doing something wrong. It sure looks like a proper meringue but won’t hold for more than a couple hours. I only need it to hold for one service but I need it to hold for the whole service.

We heat the syrup to 250F, 200g sugar, 50g water, 15g corn syrup, and add 25g of sugar per 4 whites to the mixer. Next trial I’m going to use caster sugar and add it after 1 minute of beating the whites.

Most of the chemistry tricks I’ve found deal with French meringue that is to be baked, but I figured I’d try them anyway. The grainy texture isn’t present initially- it develops after a few hours, and it’s almost certainly bubble failure.

The batch with the XG and CoT seemed to work better and whips back up a lot more quickly; using just the gum makes great Marshmallow fluff but isn’t quite meringue.

An Italian meringue is innately simple but also complex at the same time. There are 3 componenents:
2 parts sugar syrup cooked to 240F, 1 part egg white and good technique.

I would start by weighing your egg whites. Then weigh your sugar accordingly. I would omit the corn syrup all together. I would skip the step of adding 25g sugar to the 4 whites before adding the syrup, this won’t do much of anything. You can add cream of tartar if you wish, it is advantageous, but won’t stop a meringue from falling eventually.

Bring your syrup to about 230F and then start slowly whipping your egg whites to start a large bubble structure. Increase the speed (speed 6 on a kitchen aid is perfect for meringues) and ideally you will have a meringue at soft peaks exactly at the same time at the syrup reaches 240F. Slowly drizzle in the syrup in a stream and increase the speed to high. Keep beating until the meringue cools to room temperature. This standard technique yields a meringue that stays stable for about 24 hours in my experience.

Egg whites that are older, or purposely aged as for macarons, will whip up with more volume and need less whipping. Meringues with older whites separate faster but should not separate as fast as you mention yours have. Fresher egg whites whip up smaller bubble structures and make a denser, more stable meringue. Temperature also affects the meringue. Room temperature gives more volume, chilled gives more stability. The ideal combination I feel is fresh eggs at room temperature, this way your meringue still incorporates a good amount of air but doesn’t sacrifice too much stability or density.

 

[F-Flash]

Easiest Italian meringue ever:
250g normal sugar
150g egg whites

Heat to 68 degrees Celsius with low heat, mix all the time.

Then put it to kitchen aid or something alike and mix until it's room tempature.

Use within 2 days.

Edit. Okay seems that its Swiss marengue, didn't know that. But it is super easy to make. And as good.

 

[leminh247]

I'd let the Kitchen Aid work at lowest speed and room temperature until you begin the first desserts.

This would work. I was told by my chef a while back.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

@Alex Thanks, I made a test batch by that method (240 only, no raw sugar added to the whites, no corn syrup) and if the result is better I’d conclude that we’ve been overwhipping the egg whites before adding the syrup.

@nutmeg I bet that would work, but it would be loud and take up space so I don’t think it will fly.

 

[Alex M.S.]

For problem solving sake I would say something was off with your original meringue technique. Stick to the simplest, standard technique listed above and you’ll get it down pat sooner or later.

I’ve had Italian meringues hold for far longer than a single service, I sometimes would make them Thursday afternoon and then use it in a macaron batch Friday afternoon without any problems.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

That did indeed hold better than our original recipe. This is my first run with doing something like this with meringue - I wouldn’t be surprised (and have turned up some opinions to this effect) if the method was optimized for buttercream but isn’t optimal for this.

 

[mille162]

Maybe check the source of your eggs and find a source for newer/freshly laid eggs? early collapse of the foam is a sign of older eggs

https://www.thekitchn.com/food-science-the-best-eggs-for-91786

 

[Alex M.S.]

That did indeed hold better than our original recipe. This is my first run with doing something like this with meringue - I wouldn’t be surprised (and have turned up some opinions to this effect) if the method was optimized for buttercream but isn’t optimal for this.

Italian meringue is made the exactly the same way whether it’s used in a buttercream or by itself. A standard 3-2-1 buttercream simply adds 3 parts butter to an Italian meringue.