Horizontal wheel or least messy powered solution for thinning?

[Chasingsharpness]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to move to a powered solution for thinning as I realise that even the fastest coarse stones are too slow and taxing on the elbows.

Unfortunately I can't get a belt grinder at the moment due to space and ventilation issues. I don't want to have loose abrasive and metal dust issues in the family kitchen or small garden where my puppy tries to eat things.

Do I have any other options? I've seen those rotating horizontal whetstones (e.g. Shinko std180E with 180 grit wheel) that use water, and catch the abrasive, rather than exposing it into the air. I assume they are slower but easier to contain the abrasive and metal dust. I don't mind it being slower than a belt, or if I'm standing there holding it against the machine for ages, I just want to relieve the burden from my elbows.

Anyone got any recommendations?

 

[KasumiJLA]

I bought (and still use) the shinko STD-180E. It's a great little machine which is super handy when I'm sharpening at my shop when the edge of a gyuto looks more like a bread knife. It saves a lot of time with the 180 wheel. I totally dislike the 1k wheel tho.

But for thinning a knife, it's not great. In fact at the very beginning I had bought it precisely for that and to test if it would work. The surface of work is too narrow and the 180 wheel glaze/load up super fast, the cutting speed is reduced dramatically and you have to resurface very often.

I have never managed to have a super clean job either. I have thinned 2 knives with this machine and it was not at all pleasant.

 

[Benuser]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to move to a powered solution for thinning as I realise that even the fastest coarse stones are too slow and taxing on the elbows.

Unfortunately I can't get a belt grinder at the moment due to space and ventilation issues. I don't want to have loose abrasive and metal dust issues in the family kitchen or small garden where my puppy tries to eat things.

Do I have any other options? I've seen those rotating horizontal whetstones (e.g. Shinko std180E with 180 grit wheel) that use water, and catch the abrasive, rather than exposing it into the air. I assume they are slower but easier to contain the abrasive and metal dust. I don't mind it being slower than a belt, or if I'm standing there holding it against the machine for ages, I just want to relieve the burden from my elbows.

Anyone got any recommendations?

It can be hard to find the right coarse stone, the amount of water and perhaps slurry that works with a given steel. Once you found it, not that much pressure is required. Too much pressure seems counterproductive after the first strokes. The stone tends to glaze if you're not making grooves into it. In fact, I wouldn't like to miss the feeling that tells me where to stay longer to have an even result.
And after the first grit, you may want to refine the result a bit, especially closer to the edge. A 180 may be followed by a 320, 500, 800, all with reduced pressure.

 

[deltaplex]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to move to a powered solution for thinning as I realise that even the fastest coarse stones are too slow and taxing on the elbows.

Unfortunately I can't get a belt grinder at the moment due to space and ventilation issues. I don't want to have loose abrasive and metal dust issues in the family kitchen or small garden where my puppy tries to eat things.

Do I have any other options? I've seen those rotating horizontal whetstones (e.g. Shinko std180E with 180 grit wheel) that use water, and catch the abrasive, rather than exposing it into the air. I assume they are slower but easier to contain the abrasive and metal dust. I don't mind it being slower than a belt, or if I'm standing there holding it against the machine for ages, I just want to relieve the burden from my elbows.

Anyone got any recommendations?

1) What are the fastest coarse stones that you have tried?
2) When you discuss working your elbows too much, what does that look like?

 

[Chasingsharpness]

1) What are the fastest coarse stones that you have tried?
2) When you discuss working your elbows too much, what does that look like?

Probably the fastest I've tried so far are a fresh aroma 140, ByxCo Manticore 60 (with force applied), or Norton crystolon 120. I still thought they were all much slower than I would have ideally liked for larger thinning jobs.

Regarding the elbows, it's just old tendonitis in the elbow acting up after to many repetitive back and forth motions, for too long. Its worse when force is required to bear against the stone such as with Byxco Manticore 60. Likewise it is much better with lighter pressure methods like an Atoma. It helps to break up the job into multiple thinning sessions.

But ultimately this is why I was looking into a powered solution. It would be ideal to just hold the knife and guide it against a moving abrasive, rather than repetitively moving the knife against a still abrasive.

 

[jaydee]

Mmmh. Hate to be realistic about it but if you get a new tool, you start from scratch
You will need to work with that machine quite a while on many many knives until your results are somewhat acceptable.

Considered sending these to a knifemaker? How often do you thin knives? Is that really a skill you want to pursuit?

 

[Chasingsharpness]

Mmmh. Hate to be realistic about it but if you get a new tool, you start from scratch
You will need to work with that machine quite a while on many many knives until your results are somewhat acceptable.

Considered sending these to a knifemaker? How often do you thin knives? Is that really a skill you want to pursuit?

Yeah it's definitely something I want to invest the time in developing my own skill as I enjoy the hobby and the process. I also enjoy learning new skills and using new tools in general. Just looking to see what's the best option in regards to available tools and procedures with my current restrictions.

 

[mengwong]

Coincidentally, I have been shopping-carting the ingredients for

a powered sharpening stone setup

I will share news as the gadget comes together, but it may take some time.

Currently stuck on finding a backplate for the M8 rod end whose side holes match my Naniwa stone holder – I think I need 11mm dia holes spaced 45mm apart (center to center) so the bolts clear through, with a female M8/M10 midway between. May need to fabricate. No clue how.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Does Tormek offer coarse wheels?

 

[ethompson]

Unfortunately this is a situation with no magic bullet. I’ve tried all the coarse stones, coarse stones w/ SIC applied, sand paper with a holder, inverted orbital sander, horizontal and vertical mini-wheels, etc.

Short of moving to a large powered solution like a proper variable speed belt grinder or a large commercial wheel a high quality 180-220 grit stone is as good as it gets. They’re all crap in their own way - dish prone, glaze prone, inconsistent, expensive, etc. - you just need to pick the one that best matches your preferences and go from there. It will be slow going, but you don’t need to worry about someone else having a secret “hack” that you don’t worry about.

Intermediate power tools and sand paper I found to be a total waste of time and money. No faster, less accurate, more finicky. Would never recommend of thinning work.

Proper power equipment is where it is at for bulk material removal. That said, it is an entirely different set of skills that need developing. The principles are the same, but it’s a different set of motions and considerations and I think quite a bit harder to learn than stones. It can easily be 20x faster than a 220 grit stone, but you’ve got to expect to burn a few knives before getting functional and probably do a few hundred before you’re really good. And at the end you will still need to dial in on a stone IMO.

If you can't have a big power tool for one reason or another and can't spend long hours on coarse stones, the only real answer is outsourcing big projects. Once a good baseline is setup, maintenance thinning can be done fairly easy on coarse stones without much time involved.

 

[deltaplex]

Probably the fastest I've tried so far are a fresh aroma 140, ByxCo Manticore 60 (with force applied), or Norton crystolon 120. I still thought they were all much slower than I would have ideally liked for larger thinning jobs.

Regarding the elbows, it's just old tendonitis in the elbow acting up after to many repetitive back and forth motions, for too long. Its worse when force is required to bear against the stone such as with Byxco Manticore 60. Likewise it is much better with lighter pressure methods like an Atoma. It helps to break up the job into multiple thinning sessions.

But ultimately this is why I was looking into a powered solution. It would be ideal to just hold the knife and guide it against a moving abrasive, rather than repetitively moving the knife against a still abrasive.

I would honestly recommend doing strengthening exercises for your elbow tendons if you want this as a long term pursuit, regardless of if you find a powered macro stock removal setup that is less impactful to them. I have to do it now as part of PT from hurting tendons in my elbow, but I've expanded it because it helps with my endurance and recovery time for all the handwork I end up doing.

I agree with @ethompson that short of finding or building a fully watercooled, powered setup, that what you're describing doesn't really exist. You're still going to be balancing a lot of variables with going to a wheel or belt grinder.

 

[Chasingsharpness]

Does Tormek offer coarse wheels?

I believe so, but I have heard from multiple people that the Tormek is just not up to the task of thinning. A shame because it's the right form factor in regards to what I'm looking for, just lacks the power.

Unfortunately this is a situation with no magic bullet. I’ve tried all the coarse stones, coarse stones w/ SIC applied, sand paper with a holder, inverted orbital sander, horizontal and vertical mini-wheels, etc.

Short of moving to a large powered solution like a proper variable speed belt grinder or a large commercial wheel a high quality 180-220 grit stone is as good as it gets. They’re all crap in their own way - dish prone, glaze prone, inconsistent, expensive, etc. - you just need to pick the one that best matches your preferences and go from there. It will be slow going, but you don’t need to worry about someone else having a secret “hack” that you don’t worry about.

Intermediate power tools and sand paper I found to be a total waste of time and money. No faster, less accurate, more finicky. Would never recommend of thinning work.

Proper power equipment is where it is at for bulk material removal. That said, it is an entirely different set of skills that need developing. The principles are the same, but it’s a different set of motions and considerations and I think quite a bit harder to learn than stones. It can easily be 20x faster than a 220 grit stone, but you’ve got to expect to burn a few knives before getting functional and probably do a few hundred before you’re really good. And at the end you will still need to dial in on a stone IMO.

If you can't have a big power tool for one reason or another and can't spend long hours on coarse stones, the only real answer is outsourcing big projects. Once a good baseline is setup, maintenance thinning can be done fairly easy on coarse stones without much time involved.

Thank you for your detailed insights, they are much appreciated. Yeah it has been difficult to find a suitable powered solution, and likewise a good coarse stone.

I guess it's just me being hopeful as every time I go around this issue, it always seems to point to a belt grinder. I look forward to getting one when circumstances permit.

My primary issue with the stones isn't just the time it takes, but the physical strain caused by the repetitive motions over extended sessions. If I had powered solution which took the same or even longer amount of time, but alleviated that physical burden, I would be happy with it. Just put on a show in the background and get to grinding.

Yeah outsourcing the thinning job is always an option, just wanted to explore all my other options before it came to that.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I believe so, but I have heard from multiple people that the Tormek is just not up to the task of thinning. A shame because it's the right form factor in regards to what I'm looking for, just lacks the power.



Thank you for your detailed insights, they are much appreciated. Yeah it has been difficult to find a suitable powered solution, and likewise a good coarse stone.

I guess it's just me being hopeful as every time I go around this issue, it always seems to point to a belt grinder. I look forward to getting one when circumstances permit.

My primary issue with the stones isn't just the time it takes, but the physical strain caused by the repetitive motions over extended sessions. If I had powered solution which took the same or even longer amount of time, but alleviated that physical burden, I would be happy with it. Just put on a show in the background and get to grinding.

Yeah outsourcing the thinning job is always an option, just wanted to explore all my other options before it came to that.

What is the fastest cutting stone you have now?

 

[aporigine]

… tendonitis in the elbow acting up after to many repetitive back and forth motions, for too long

Oh dear. My private life is in peril.

 

[Chasingsharpness]

What is the fastest cutting stone you have now?

Probably an Atoma140, ByxCo 60 or Norton crystolon coarse (120). They are all still quite slow. The Byxco requires too much force to keep the surface cutting, but is great for bearing down on if you needed to remove a small amount of metal quickly.

 

[DanielC]

2x72 belt grinders are great but they will usually need cleaning up with a stone if the rest of the bevel is your concern.

I made a variable sped disc grinder, but similar options can be had for 1-2k already made. Dust catching solution that can accept sparks, add another $700-1k, and then learn how to use it without dying. Maybe wear chain mail if you are worried.

 

[Tekkz]

Unfortunately this is a situation with no magic bullet. I’ve tried all the coarse stones, coarse stones w/ SIC applied, sand paper with a holder, inverted orbital sander, horizontal and vertical mini-wheels, etc.

Short of moving to a large powered solution like a proper variable speed belt grinder or a large commercial wheel a high quality 180-220 grit stone is as good as it gets. They’re all crap in their own way - dish prone, glaze prone, inconsistent, expensive, etc. - you just need to pick the one that best matches your preferences and go from there. It will be slow going, but you don’t need to worry about someone else having a secret “hack” that you don’t worry about.

Intermediate power tools and sand paper I found to be a total waste of time and money. No faster, less accurate, more finicky. Would never recommend of thinning work.

Proper power equipment is where it is at for bulk material removal. That said, it is an entirely different set of skills that need developing. The principles are the same, but it’s a different set of motions and considerations and I think quite a bit harder to learn than stones. It can easily be 20x faster than a 220 grit stone, but you’ve got to expect to burn a few knives before getting functional and probably do a few hundred before you’re really good. And at the end you will still need to dial in on a stone IMO.

If you can't have a big power tool for one reason or another and can't spend long hours on coarse stones, the only real answer is outsourcing big projects. Once a good baseline is setup, maintenance thinning can be done fairly easy on coarse stones without much time involved.