How do you gauge store brand and retailer lines?

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josemartinlopez

josemartinlopez

我會買所有的獨角獸
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Many knife makers have well defined lines that are familiar on this forum. For example, if someone refers to Konosuke Fujiyamas, people know what that means. However, a number of stores and retailers have their own lines. Some are simple tweaks to a familiar line from the maker, such as replacing the cladding with stainless cladding, changing the steel to White #1 or Blue Super, or upgrading the handle. Some, however, are store brands or completely different lines. For example, Yoshikazu Tanaka is the smith for the Konosuke Fujiyamas, but Hitohira the retailer has several lines of Yoshikazu Tanaka forged blades sharpened by different sharpeners. Yoshikazu Tanaka is the smith for other stores' house brands (even Razorsharp in Singapore has a few Yoshikazu Tanaka knives they had made) and can be paired with an unfamiliar (at least to us, outside Japan) or unnamed sharpener. You cannot expect one of these knives to be similar to a Konosuke Fujiyama or another Yoshikazu Tanaka knife simply because the blacksmith is the same. I appreciated comments by @osakajoe in old threads saying that the blacksmith is only one factor in the final product and you have to understand the roles of various people in making a knife in Japan.

Is there any way to navigate these store or retailer brands, especially if you have less experience gauging how a knife will perform? Take Yoshikazu Tanaka as an example, how would you gauge a knife if the retailer says he is the blacksmith but the other information is less familiar. Take Hitohira as a further example, how would you compare the different knives by Hitohira where Yoshikazu Tanaka is the blacksmith? I couldn't quite find old threads discussing this.
 
to answer your question, Yoshikazu Tanaka is just the blacksmith.

To start, the Sakai maker is a whole different industry than other regions. Sakai knife industries have Blacksmith and Sharpener, where Sanjo, Takefu and Kanto area are usually do the sharpener/grinding in-house (either by the blacksmith or in-house sharpener).

Sakai Wholesaler also has its own politics where each Wholesaler only works with Certain Blacksmith, and then, Certain Blacksmith only works with certain Sharpener. IE, Kaneshige/Konosuke works with Shiraki and Tanaka. Aoki Hamono (Sakai Takayuki) works with Togashi, Doi and Yamatsuka. Kawamura Hamono (Sakai Kikumori) works with Shiraki and Tanaka. etc..

if your buying with a certain blacksmith, you will get their famous HT, edge retention and ease of sharpening. How it will perform, it depends on who is the sharpener, Wide bevel knife is not the same performance as the Convex hamaguri knife, so who sharpen them matters as well.

So What matters the MOST IS WHEN YOU GO TO RAZORSHARP DONT FORGET TO ASK WHO IS THE SHARPENER SO WHEN YOU BUY IT, YOU CAN SHARE IT ON NEW KNIFE THREAD. IF YOU'RE LAZY, RAZORSHARP HAVE $9 SHIPPING FEE SO THERE IS NO EXCUSE.
 
Thanks, but if and when they tell me who the sharpener is, any further advice beyond looking at the knife and seeing how it feels in hand?
 
josemartinlopez said:
Many knife makers have well defined lines that are familiar on this forum. For example, if someone refers to Konosuke Fujiyamas, people know what that means. However, a number of stores and retailers have their own lines. Some are simple tweaks to a familiar line from the maker, such as replacing the cladding with stainless cladding, changing the steel to White #1 or Blue Super, or upgrading the handle. Some, however, are store brands or completely different lines. For example, Yoshikazu Tanaka is the smith for the Konosuke Fujiyamas, but Hitohira the retailer has several lines of Yoshikazu Tanaka forged blades sharpened by different sharpeners. Yoshikazu Tanaka is the smith for other stores' house brands (even Razorsharp in Singapore has a few Yoshikazu Tanaka knives they had made) and can be paired with an unfamiliar (at least to us, outside Japan) or unnamed sharpener. You cannot expect one of these knives to be similar to a Konosuke Fujiyama or another Yoshikazu Tanaka knife simply because the blacksmith is the same. I appreciated comments by @osakajoe in old threads saying that the blacksmith is only one factor in the final product and you have to understand the roles of various people in making a knife in Japan.

Is there any way to navigate these store or retailer brands, especially if you have less experience gauging how a knife will perform? Take Yoshikazu Tanaka as an example, how would you gauge a knife if the retailer says he is the blacksmith but the other information is less familiar. Take Hitohira as a further example, how would you compare the different knives by Hitohira where Yoshikazu Tanaka is the blacksmith? I couldn't quite find old threads discussing this.
Click to expand...

I understand your question.

I'm interested in what your conclusions are. How do you personally "navigate these store or retailer brands"?

Which brands and retailers do you like, and why?
 
josemartinlopez said:
Is there any way to navigate these store or retailer brands, especially if you have less experience gauging how a knife will perform? Take Yoshikazu Tanaka as an example, how would you gauge a knife if the retailer says he is the blacksmith but the other information is less familiar. Take Hitohira as a further example, how would you compare the different knives by Hitohira where Yoshikazu Tanaka is the blacksmith? I couldn't quite find old threads discussing this.
Click to expand...
There are certain shops throughout Japan where teleportation is now possible in which you can travel to the store from any destination on Earth in a matter of seconds using state of the art devices and ask the retailer hundreds of questions in person without actually buying anything.
Hope this helps.
 
am i missing something here? why is everyone so hostile towards the OP?
 
josemartinlopez said:
Is there any way to navigate these store or retailer brands, especially if you have less experience gauging how a knife will perform? Take Yoshikazu Tanaka as an example, how would you gauge a knife if the retailer says he is the blacksmith but the other information is less familiar. Take Hitohira as a further example, how would you compare the different knives by Hitohira where Yoshikazu Tanaka is the blacksmith? I couldn't quite find old threads discussing this.
Click to expand...
These aren’t even answerable questions. I’ll take the OP seriously when he decides to take the forum seriously.
Until then, Nightcrawler styled transportation is the best solution.
 
Most people here do their gauging by buying knives which they find interesting, trying them out, keeping the ones that work well for them and selling the ones they don't like as much on BST. They also post their experience on their trials on threads about the knives they own or have owned. This is how most people contribute to KKF and make it a wonderful collection of knowledge.
 
josemartinlopez said:
Is there any way to navigate these store or retailer brands, especially if you have less experience gauging how a knife will perform? Take Yoshikazu Tanaka as an example, how would you gauge a knife if the retailer says he is the blacksmith but the other information is less familiar. Take Hitohira as a further example, how would you compare the different knives by Hitohira where Yoshikazu Tanaka is the blacksmith? I couldn't quite find old threads discussing this.
Click to expand...

It's quite simple
- buy a knife (doesn't matter which one)
- use the knife
- buy another knife (doesn't matter which one)
- use second knife
- compare first and second knife.
- read review of third knife, see how it compares to first or second knife. (optional)
- buy third knife
- use third knife
- see if the comparison was accurate for you (optional)
- post comparison, see feedback.
- sell least liked of three knives to fund fourth knife.
- keep going with above steps.

You will never know if a knife is right for you until you try it. I've tried an 8", thought it was good until I tried the 10" from the same line and discovered it was so much better, and the reverse where I thought I'd like a 240 based on the 210, and sold the 240 after 2 cuts.
 
esoo said:
It's quite simple
- buy a knife (doesn't matter which one)
- use the knife
- buy another knife (doesn't matter which one)
- use second knife
- compare first and second knife.
- read review of third knife, see how it compares to first or second knife. (optional)
- buy third knife
- use third knife
- see if the comparison was accurate for you (optional)
- post comparison, see feedback.
- sell least liked of three knives to fund fourth knife.
- keep going with above steps.

You will never know if a knife is right for you until you try it. I've tried an 8", thought it was good until I tried the 10" from the same line and discovered it was so much better, and the reverse where I thought I'd like a 240 based on the 210, and sold the 240 after 2 cuts.
Click to expand...

Agree. Experiencing different knives and retailers part of the journey towards defining one's taste and preferences. However, KKF was a bit of a shortcut for me, reading about other's experiences here helped me skip over a bunch of knives in the process. There're pretty much only 3–5 retailers I like buying from and trust, and built a rapport with.

20+ gyutos later, I think I know what works for me.
 
OP, just get any 210 or 240 and try. If you don’t like it, just put it up on BST and recover some of your money.

Or make a YouTube video and rage over how it’s sh1t it was and how you were coerced by KKF into buying a knife you didn’t like.
 
Plus taste and preference change over time as you become more experienced. I was originally into lightweight 210's with easy to maintain SS cladding and now I prefer mid-weight iron clad 220-230's and Honyaki. What you may like today may not be a good fit tomorrow. Buy a few different knives, use them on different produce, sell the ones that fail to excite and repeat. Oh and learn how to sharpen.....
 
DitmasPork said:
Agree. Experiencing different knives and retailers part of the journey towards defining one's taste and preferences. However, KKF was a bit of a shortcut for me, reading about other's experiences here helped me skip over a bunch of knives in the process. There're pretty much only 3–5 retailers I like buying from and trust, and built a rapport with.

20+ gyutos later, I think I know what works for me.
Click to expand...

I concur - good reviews make good shortcuts, but you need to have some background to understand the the reviews. And you only get the background by actually committing at some point to a knife.
 
Corradobrit1 said:
Plus taste and preference change over time as you become more experienced. I was originally into lightweight 210's with easy to maintain SS cladding and now I prefer mid-weight iron clad 220-230's and Honyaki. What you may like today may not be a good fit tomorrow. Buy a few different knives, use them on different produce, sell the ones that fail to excite and repeat. Oh and learn how to sharpen.....
Click to expand...
Yes, TF is sh1t, Toyanabe is sh1t, Kato is sh1t now.
I only use Shuns and crowdfunded knives now, they’re awesome 😎
 
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