How would you choose a grail general purpose knife for your personal home cooking?

[Nemo]

To me, this a variation on the question, "which is the best knife", which is often asked by people new to knives. I guess it follows in some ways from the desire to know what you get for your money as the price goes up.

There is, of course, no "best knife". Different knives excel at different things. Indeed some knives don't excel at much at all. This is the true beauty of kitchen knives- there are so many facets of performance, ergonomics and aesthetics to take into account and you will only start to learn about these as you try differnt knives. What one person considers important will vary from another person and indeed will likely change from one situation to another.

Many of the facets of performance are trade-offs with another facet, so the knifemaker needs to choose which aspect they are pursuing. For example, a thin knife will excel at going through hard produce but sucks (literally) at going through wet produce. A thick knife can incorporate grind features such as convexity which allow easy passage through wet produce but can wedge in hard produce. Note that if you give a thick knife a flat grind it will also get a lot of stiction in wet produce, so it important for the knifemaker to actually do the work to get the benefit out of a thick grind.

So, no, for me there is no "grail" knife (we often call them "unicorns" on KKF). I appreciate each knife for what it does well. And what it doesn't, because this informs my understanding of why it doesn't do it well and what is required in a knife to perform that particular task well.

 

[madelinez]

I would get a 210-240mm assuming your kitchen and cutting boards are large enough to accommodate. Best general purpose gyutos for me ignoring price are Raquin and Catcheside. Raquin cladding is pretty reactive though so you'd want to be using it at least weekly in Singapore's humidity.

 

[josemartinlopez]

My question for you is, how much do you got to spend for this grail knife?

Enough.

 

[zeaderan]

Maumasi

 

[AFKitchenknivesguy]

Enough.

It was a rhetorical question, though grail knives are usually expensive for most people.

 

[josemartinlopez]

Witnessed the recent 2015-priced Kato and Shig being sold in a flash.

Probably opening a can of worms but why exactly are Kato and Shig priced so high on this forum? I read old threads with reviews but still do not understand why they are so much better than comparable knives, and don't know if they are as well regarded in Japan itself.

Also, why are there so many threads talking about the Masamoto KS as the grail knife of five years ago?

 

[zizirex]

Probably opening a can of worms but why exactly are Kato and Shig priced so high on this forum? I read old threads with reviews but still do not understand why they are so much better than comparable knives, and don't know if they are as well regarded in Japan itself.

Also, why are there so many threads talking about the Masamoto KS as the grail knife of five years ago?

because Hype, limited production and best way to flip a knife (making money).

 

[Barmoley]

because Hype, limited production and best way to flip a knife (making money).

See this is not an explanation.

Limited production sure, but I can make a knife and I won't be able to sell it. The knife has to be popular first. Hype, fine, but hype doesn't last for years if the product is total crap. Best way to flip a knife, see above has to be desirable first before one can flip it for more.

Given this, both shig and Kato must be desirable, by a pretty large group of people, to continually bring such prices and by extension have to be pretty good knives to some people. Unless ofcourse you believe in conspiracy theories and think that it is all a ploy by a small group on the forums in order to make money on these. Seems very far fetched for someone to go through the trouble for years.

 

[josemartinlopez]

Again, not trying to open a can of worms, but what would the comparable knives to Shig and Kato, and why are the latter better (or at least priced higher)?

 

[M1k3]

Decent cutters made the old fashioned way by hand and limited production and retiring so dwindling production with no successor with a sprinkling of hype. A sort of perfect storm.

 

[josemartinlopez]

Yeah but what exactly is their cutting profile and what is comparable? I’ve read the reviews but don’t quite understand how they compare to the alternatives.

 

[Jville]

Yeah but what exactly is their cutting profile and what is comparable? I’ve read the reviews but don’t quite understand how they compare to the alternatives.

It's not really just about the profiles. They are pretty unique, not that alot of other handmade knives aren't. When it comes to Katos, probably, the most unique and coveted factor is the grind. They are very thick and taper nicely, yet often found to be great cutters. I put "often", because that can vary from different knives and different experiences. Shig the steel is wonderful to sharpen imo. The grinds are also a part of Shigs somewhat uniqueness. They actually can vary so I won't go into all of those. Plus I'm no expert on either, but I've had some experiences. And they are knives that I feel are very rememberable, even if you don't like them. Me personally, I love them both, but don't want to pay exuberant prices that some charge on secondary market. Maybe ask a friend who has one and try them, see for yourself and make your own opinion.

 

[zizirex]

it's a good decent knife, handmade, limited run,
Made using Sen instead a water wheel to grind the knife. Is it better? maybe.. less chance of low spot, is it worth it? YMMV
Jiro is also grinding the knife using Sen, but the hype is not on that level yet that's why you could still get it.
Shig has so many types, the KU is the fat bastard, it is fat and very cheapo looks, is it good? well YMMV again.

people in here very appreciate knife by single man artisanal style. where if it's made by a single person/family and the more traditional it is, the more likely people will buy it.

Back to the knife itself, cutting profile is a bit taller, very nice for most people here where knuckle clearance matters. the grind is a little bit of S grind, and convex. on top of that, natural stone finishes really increase the value of the knife.

if you want to buy the Shig, buy at least the Migaki because the KU is just not worth it.
As for Kato, he is Old, and retiring soon, famous for his workhorse series. A knife with an Eiffel tower distal taper really wins the hearts of many people.

As for hype, What @M1k3 said is true. that's a perfect recipe for making go crazy.

In the end, is it worth it? well, it is worth it if you are a collector because once it's gone, you will never gonna get it again. if you're asking for performance, there are knives that are much better at that price and not as limited as those 2.

 

[josemartinlopez]

Any examples of what are better in terms of performance with comparable cutting style?

 

[Michi]

If you want only one "do everything" knife, a 210 mm middle-weight gyuto would be my choice. Truly universal, not too big, not too small.

 

[Jville]

If you want only one "do everything" knife, a 210 mm middle-weight gyuto would be my choice. Truly universal, not too big, not too small.

But which one is excalibur? That is his quest.

 

[Barmoley]

it's a good decent knife, handmade, limited run,
Made using Sen instead a water wheel to grind the knife. Is it better? maybe.. less chance of low spot, is it worth it? YMMV
Jiro is also grinding the knife using Sen, but the hype is not on that level yet that's why you could still get it.
Shig has so many types, the KU is the fat bastard, it is fat and very cheapo looks, is it good? well YMMV again.

people in here very appreciate knife by single man artisanal style. where if it's made by a single person/family and the more traditional it is, the more likely people will buy it.

Back to the knife itself, cutting profile is a bit taller, very nice for most people here where knuckle clearance matters. the grind is a little bit of S grind, and convex. on top of that, natural stone finishes really increase the value of the knife.

if you want to buy the Shig, buy at least the Migaki because the KU is just not worth it.
As for Kato, he is Old, and retiring soon, famous for his workhorse series. A knife with an Eiffel tower distal taper really wins the hearts of many people.

As for hype, What @M1k3 said is true. that's a perfect recipe for making go crazy.

In the end, is it worth it? well, it is worth it if you are a collector because once it's gone, you will never gonna get it again. if you're asking for performance, there are knives that are much better at that price and not as limited as those 2.

What knives are much better performance wise than Kato in the same price range? I've never used one, so would like to know.

 

[BillHanna]

What knives are much better performance wise than Kato in the same price range? I've never used one, so would like to know.

I think a Recommended If You Like thread would be awesome. Someone smart and knowledgeable should start one.

 

[Nemo]

Any examples of what are better in terms of performance with comparable cutting style?

I get why you are asking this but it's so much more complex than you appear to realise. Which is why you keep getting oblique answers to the question.

What do you mean by "performance" and "cutting style"? How are you going to use the knife? Which aspects of performance do you prioritise?

Different aspects of performance often trade off against each other. Some knifemakers are better than others at finessing these compromises than others but there is no one perfect knife.

I have never used Kato.

The Shig I used reminded me very much of my (current generation) Gengetsu in terms of thinness vs food release tradeoff (that is to say, very good) and overall thickness. It was probably a bit more tapered.

 

[zizirex]

What knives are much better performance wise than Kato in the same price range? I've never used one, so would like to know.

That's hard to say, performance good for you is not the same for everybody. I never used one yet, but a friend of mine said that Jiro is as good as him. He has a couple of Kato and a credible guy so I could trust him.

 

[Jville]

That's hard to say, performance good for you is not the same for everybody. I never used one yet, but a friend of mine said that Jiro is as good as him. He has a couple of Kato and a credible guy so I could trust him.

I'm assuming you tried Kato and not Jiro? Jiro and Kato are such completely different knives. If someone likes Jiro better than of course, they are entitled to their opinion. But it's kind of of like saying an Apple is better than an orange. I also don't think people are buying Kato's based mostly on him doing the work himself. I think they are just very interesting knives that people want to try or own. And that many people just like using them. I hear alot of people talk about ku shigs like they are sort of low level. I'll just throw my 2 cents out there. All three nakiris that I had my hands on I likef a lot. The two 165s were convexed very smoothly and got thin behind the edge. They were really enjoyable on alot of product (not sweet potatoes) and oozed craftsmanship. They 180 ku nakiri was my favorite and it had a phenomenal grind that was masterful. It was a little thinner, nice distal taper, beautiful smooth convexing and thin behind the edge, also thinned back out towards the spine for better food release. It felt in no way sloppy, rather, it felt meticulously and masterly crafted, just my opinion though.

 

[zizirex]

I'm assuming you tried Kato and not Jiro? Jiro and Kato are such completely different knives. If someone likes Jiro better than of course, they are entitled to their opinion. But it's kind of of like saying an Apple is better than an orange. I also don't think people are buying Kato's based mostly on him doing the work himself. I think they are just very interesting knives that people want to try or own. And that many people just like using them. I hear alot of people talk about ku shigs like they are sort of low level. I'll just throw my 2 cents out there. All three nakiris that I had my hands on I likef a lot. The two 165s were convexed very smoothly and got thin behind the edge. They were really enjoyable on alot of product (not sweet potatoes) and oozed craftsmanship. They 180 ku nakiri was my favorite and it had a phenomenal grind that was masterful. It was a little thinner, nice distal taper, beautiful smooth convexing and thin behind the edge, also thinned back out towards the spine for better food release. It felt in no way sloppy, rather, it felt meticulously and masterly crafted, just my opinion though.

Yes kinda hard to say a good performance because everyone has a different style and opinion. I don't care about food release and how it falls through the food is what matter's to me. heavier knife helps but sometimes it wedges like crazy. Kato is a good performance knife but is that performance is the same performance that I wanted or KKF performance? who knows.

Then again, what you said Kato & Jiro is like apple to an orange, it is not the same. that means everyone's opinion is also different. maybe it's just my 2 cents.

 

[danemonji]

Kato is not a prize or something to buy thinking to get money. I wanted to say this for a long time. You want to make money just buy stocks. Tesla stock were 500$ begining of year now they tripled value( although they were close to 1800 last week).
You buy knives to use and enjoy a piece of craftsmanship that's unique. Each maker like each artist is more or less special in style, but some just influence the craft so much that they set the standard. Kato and Shigefusa did just that. Kato style of knives has become a standard for profile, taper and grind and before kato nobody did workhorses. We take for granted his design of the blade copied by many other popular makers. Even his KU style has made some smiths very popular and if you look at the finish of their KU, or shape, or worhorse grind you come to realize that they have something Katoesque in them.
While many copy Kato, Kato is just Kato and that makes him special.
Shigefusa also set a standard for finishing knives to perfection and holding that standard across decades and two generations. They are very popular knives in Japan and around the world and for good reason.
Jiro is also unique in his own way. He is a very talented and skilled smith and could have done what mazaki is doing: copy a grand master and just become popular because you remind people of someone else.
But Jiro has walked his own path and asumed criticism, with his unique style of blades and handles and center of weight. This is what I like about him. The courage to be original. And his knives are very good and are currently sold out ( just like kato and shigs) in all the stores around the world

 

[Brian Weekley]

Hmmmmm .... very interesting question. I have quite a few knives from most of the makers discussed here. When a new knife arrives in my collection I line it up and rotate it through my home kitchen for a couple of weeks. Most I appreciate, record and put away. From time to time I encounter a knife that is outstanding in hand. They are knives that I reach for In deference to others because they do so many jobs very well. These knives end up in what I call my “permanent block”. After a few kitchen renovations this year the permanent block has turned into a mag strip. Here’s a picture of my permanent block as it sits today.

From left to right, a custom blade by Alex Horn, a Takeda AS Petty, a Catcheside nakiri, a Carter Funayuki, a Takeda NAS kogatana, and a Kurosaki Fujin VG10 Bunka. In the background Is a pharmacists compounding spatula. Most are between 180 and 200mm. All, except the Kurosaki are reactive blades. Just to be clear I have two drawer blocks which mostly contain gyuto’s and a couple of suji’s as well as a half dozen Victorinox paring knives. I guess some of these could be called “grail” knives, but in truth the knives in the pictured mag strip are the knives I reach for most often when I want to get things done in my HOME kitchen. Were I working in a commercial kitchen some of my choices would be different and would most certainly include my 240mm Catcheside gyuto. Closest to what we would think of as a “grail” knife is the Horn knife at the far left. In my opinion Alex Horn is one seriously talented knife-smith. If he ever settles down to perfecting his art and style I believe he will become a future master-smith with knife prices moving into nose bleed territory. This knife is a fully reactive hand forged san mai blade with a distinctive and, IMO, very attractive coffee etch. Murray Carters influence is evident in that it is a very thin blade and an absolute cutting machine. The Takeda petty is similar but different enough to be used often. I love it’s S grind, more robust tip and it sharpens rediculously easy to a scary sharp edge. The Catcheside nakiri is a vege chopping monster. There is nothing in the vegetable world that I won’t use it to demolish except maybe a large a large squash or cabbage ... in which case I’ll probably pull my Catcheside Gyuto from the drawer block. Unbelievably the Catcheside nakiri bested my Takeda Nakiri in the naughty schoolboy great potato slap down. Next up is probably the best all-around kitchen knife I own in a Carter Funayuki. It will do anything in a home kitchen and do it very well. In a commercial kitchen, I’m not so sure. It’s rediculously easy to sharpen, takes and holds a long lasting scary sharp edge and has a wonderful balanced feel in my hand. It may not be a “grail” but it’s a darn fine knife and worth every penny of Carter‘s premium pricing. Not much to say about the Takeda Kogetana except if you don’t have one ... go buy one. I use it several times each day for opening packages, quick portioning and cutting cardboard. I can’t believe how it holds an edge given the abuse it sees in my kitchen. The last knife is the surprise of the bunch. It’s a bunka by Yu Kurosaki. VG10 steel in his “fujin” style which I find very attractive, even though the markings can pick up cutting residue which is annoying. It’s light, thin, has great feel in hand, sharpens easily, holds a great edge and is the only stainless knife on the rack. I use it a lot when I’m in a hurry. I especially like the sharp tip. It’s the only knife of the bunch which I own a pair. One stays permanently aboard my boat.

So, there it is! My current permanent block. Maybe a couple of “almost grails” but I have individual knives in my collection that are worth more than all of my permanent block knives combined. These are the knives I reach for when I want to get things done in my home kitchen.

 

[Ruso]

Grails is about the journey and not about the material object. Enjoy!

 

[AFKitchenknivesguy]

Grails is about the journey and not about the material object. Enjoy!

Pretty much this, grails are different for everyone and depends on your preference. I own an almost unattainable knife (Kramer damascus), yet I wouldn't consider it my grail knife. I'm still on my journey.

 

[josemartinlopez]

Kato style of knives has become a standard for profile, taper and grind and before kato nobody did workhorses. We take for granted his design of the blade copied by many other popular makers. Even his KU style has made some smiths very popular and if you look at the finish of their KU, or shape, or worhorse grind you come to realize that they have something Katoesque in them.
While many copy Kato, Kato is just Kato and that makes him special.
Shigefusa also set a standard for finishing knives to perfection and holding that standard across decades and two generations. They are very popular knives in Japan and around the world and for good reason.

Thanks, I was looking for answers like this! Asking people what their preferenecs are and why certain knives fit those preferences helps me along my own journey, understanding that there are no definitive answers here.

 

[MoabDave]

This is why I am on this forum.

 

[DitmasPork]

"...grail knife, general purpose, for personal home cooking."

All of my gyutos are used as general purpose use in home cooking. It comes down to whatever I feel like using, whatever is sharp—Kato, TF, Raquin, Takada all great general purpose knives for a home cook. Watanabe is my beater.

 

[josemartinlopez]

"...grail knife, general purpose, for personal home cooking."

All of my gyutos are used as general purpose us in home cooking. It comes down to whatever I feel like using, whatever is sharp—Kato, TF, Raquin, Takada all great general purpose knives for a home cook. Watanabe is my beater.

When do you feel like using which?