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@LifeByA1000Cuts i love those german knifestores.. you have lots of fun and laugh your ass of when you listen to the sellers ;).. and most knifes they sell are crap
 
The seller was puzzled when I told him enigmatically "he'll come for that tomorrow" when a customer declined purchasing a ceramic rod with his knife.
 
daveb said:
Hope that the old farts will take away from this that they're are many roads to the top of the mountain.

And the newer guys take away that sharpening is as subjective as knives and that this is a collection of usually well reasoned opinions

Except the guy with the rock, a piece of string and the coconut.:what:
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What I take away from this is that confirmation bias is a beautiful thing.
 
With mine it was a 14dps Cordon Bleu, and I know how to sharpen, but an average consumer will wonder about it. But in your case they've sold a very coarse ceramic rod as well -- the blue one, sold as an 800, starting at 120JIS, I guess??
 
@Benuser white one, probably like the IKEA rod - which I think is exactly smack in the middle of OK .... btw, any of you abrasiveS geeks got any idea why it seems to be ultra-effective on AUS-8 in the upper 50s (apart from that being a possible material behind the 365+ metal handled, but didn't test on these)?
 
of course we are nuts! ;) i would be offended if someone declares me normal ;))
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
@Benuser white one, probably like the IKEA rod - which I think is exactly smack in the middle of OK .... btw, any of you abrasiveS geeks got any idea why it seems to be ultra-effective on AUS-8 in the upper 50s (apart from that being a possible material behind the 365+ metal handled, but didn't test on these)?
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Wüsthof 's 3k rod is white indeed. The blue one is supposed to be 1k but comes from the factory at some 120. Not so sure that will be that helpful to the consumer willing to abrade an initial Wüsthof burr.
 
Sharpchef said:
using a paste loadet strop kills the signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only.... sorry for saying that but this is the truth!

Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention.... So don`T use this useless stuff!

Greets Sebastian.
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With soft stainless you indeed better not use a high polishing. With soft carbons you can and should, but with the stainless it will invariably lead to edge instability. Carbides breaking out. Keep it rough. But this is true only for soft stainless like the Krupp 4116.
 
panda said:
ya'll are nuts, i've always hated sharpening and still do. the whole reason i'm obsessed with finding the right stones is to make the experience suck less.
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:rofl2:

My favorite honing rod is the smooth oval Dickoron Dick polish boldly displayed in gold letters on the blue handle:O
 
@keithsaltydog and probably one of the few that you can *correctly* call a honing rod.
 
Krassi said:
Hi @nemo new fresh video with the "light" system.. there is also a robust with extra pressure control (it full hardcore german but you will see the full functionality https://youtu.be/cCi6Q-aWpws the robust one looks like this http://up.picr.de/28147903ja.jpg )
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Thanks Krassi and also Robin. I'm quite curious but I suspect I shoul just focus on my freehand techniqe. Where would one find such a device and what's the cost?
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
"signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only"

That would only be of concern if the sharpener owns a stone whose signature is desirable to keep, and that is fine enough for the desired sharpness.

Also, the intended result might be to get the d... knife sharp now not be ultra-perfect with a finishing stone :)

"Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention...."

OK, explain to me how crox or even diamond loaded on a moderately hard, even surface (not a hanging strop) is different from a finishing stone of the same grit? (Not saying you're wrong! This is a request for discussion not a rebuttal).

"Imagine a rounded sawtooth."

Imagine a sawtooth with a polished apex?

"you will built a secondary bevel"

Which would be the exact intention both on finishing stone and loaded strop, unless you insist on a zero-microbevel edge that will in some cases be thicker than it needs to be?
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Ok, a good finisher is needed, no question here....

A knife has to be sharp, there are many ways to do this.

crox and other compounds on a hard surface like a metal polish plate, work fine, like a stone, you are right here, Chromox finish is like a coticule finish, less teeth less bite, diamond compound is better there, but should not be used with edge leading strokes, that might harm the edge (some kind of slurry dulling effect, some might know from razor honing with coticules...). But if the compound is on a only moderate hard medium, it will cause a convex micro bevel.

So most of you guys sharpen with lets say a 20 Degree total edge, and then make a one or two sided microbevel, with about 40 Degree total angle? right?

Resulting in a slightly better cut then a 40 degree edge without microbevel. But it is a little weaker for lets say cutting hard things like parmesan or rosemary stem especially when you accidentely jam the knife.

The Sawtooth thing.... Is a little hard to explain, take an ordinary new Woodsaw, that cuts very well because of very sharp and sawteeth that got massive burr. If you use this saw for quite a while, the sharpness/easy cut will suffer, not because the teeth are gone, only the burr will be lost over a little time frame.... And this is exactly what happens when you treat your blades with cromox loadet strops.

What i need for my cutting (and i am talking about knives beyond 60 HRC), mostly rock chopping, is a edge that holds up and is less sensitive.
Therefore i don`t sharpen microbevels, i only sharpen one bevel with 36 degree, sometimes the first part of the knife is done with 38 degree, this is why there is the most impact on the board while cutting Onions etc.

The Blade is polished to maybe 20k Level (Gokumyo) and sometimes a little Arkansas session after this. To create a bevel that got nearly no teeth left, that could be harmed my jamming on maybe Rosemary wooden stem....
And as every experienced sharpener knows, this should be a very sharp but short cutting edge. If this is done by hand, or Edge Pro.....
So not the thing we want. But with the Bogdan Gizmo, it is possible, because it takes very much weight away from the edge while sharpening...

So i can sharpen a high quality hard gyuto like a straight razor, or even sharper (With Diamond lapping Film, that even cuts through carbides as well....) And it will outlast every edge that was done by hand and an usefull edge, lets say at 5k level.

I would like to prove it, for you, so i would need a trusted member here, that lives in EU, and i will sharpen a knife from me or him, too prove this theory.

Greetings Sebastian.
 
20k gokumyo is far above the standard usually practiced even here, no argument with that :)

So would you have the same advice for users that prefer (or are relearning to) wrist pivoted technique instead of rock chopping? If I am not mistaken, that translates to "need a balance of slicing (teeth) and push cutting (keenness), and a different one than for tip-pivot technique like rock chopping or guillotine and glide. Need less crush resilience, more straight on impact resilience."

"but should not be used with edge leading strokes", "...coticule..."

Which I'd not do with neither a balsa strop nor a coticule - Something the weight of a kitchen knife will all too easily bite both with the slightest slip of attention :)
 
I am quite sceptical about all this.
 
I recommend Matus as the person who should test one of sharpchefs sharpened knives, he is also s knife maker, is respected around here and lives in Germany, so no issues sending back and forth easily...
 
Ruso said:
I am quite sceptical about all this.
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And you are right! i was absolutely sceptical! Till the time it was proved to me.....

@LifeByA1000Cuts: You know there are coticules that are not easy to cut into ;)....

@bennyprofane: @Matus might be a good choice. I just PM`d Matus and ecchef and they may test my sharpening if they like.

Greets Sebastian.
 
@Sharpchef in a way, I appreciate that the BBW (blue coticule) forces one to think before doing anything edge leading...
 
Ruso said:
I am quite sceptical about all this.
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100% agree. Afterall I still see all the same downfalls with this system as any other. Doesn't take into account of blade geometry, at least for a blade with any curve.

As for edge retention that still doesn't add up to me, i still believe it is that you are setting for a more obtuse angle (and holding it better) with this system. Which us leading to more material behind the edge and therefore a more stable edge.

Of course the higher grit you go the more your technique flaws show, so I still suggest it isn't the machine creating the best edge retention, just a more consistent result than you can produce by hand, the key opperative being you.

As for the stropping rubbish... its all sharpening, a harder material being scratched against a softer material. If product builds up infront of the edge that may cause an issue, logically of course, but that is less to do with stropping but rather choice and application of materials.

Plus most stropping is edge trailing so less of an issue.
 
Well, an unloaded strop is more of a hone?

Now has anyone gotten into how the swarf particles a particular steel produces on a certain abrasive might take part in the process - there should be carbide bits with an abrasive effect, same-hardness particles with a burnishing effect...
 
My guess is that detriment to an edge with a strop is due more to poor technique. Using too much pressure or rolling the blade off the leather. Burr removal on a stone, stropping on stone, newspaper, leather or whatever is a light touch. Pressure is for cutting bevels.

Never used strops at work. Like to use leather when sharpening others knives as a finishing touch. I recommend stashing a small splash go at work. If your knife is trained to your sharpening style a few strokes will put the edge right. Certainly better than wailing away on a grooved steel.

Edge retention JMO is due more to Knife geometry, type of steel, heat treatment, & a free handers skill than sharpening equipment.
 
"If your knife is trained to your sharpening style a few strokes will put the edge right"

So it's not an illusion that stropping a factory edge, loaded or unloaded, usually worsens it, even if it seems to have the same angle you'd put on it :)
 
keithsaltydog said:
My guess is that detriment to an edge with a strop is due more to poor technique. Using too much pressure or rolling the blade off the leather. Burr removal on a stone, stropping on stone, newspaper, leather or whatever is a light touch. Pressure is for cutting bevels.

Never used strops at work. Like to use leather when sharpening others knives as a finishing touch. I recommend stashing a small splash go at work. If your knife is trained to your sharpening style a few strokes will put the edge right. Certainly better than wailing away on a grooved steel.

Edge retention JMO is due more to Knife geometry, type of steel, heat treatment, & a free handers skill than sharpening equipment.
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The poor technique is the main cause for failure, for sure. But believe me i try so many different strops and compounds and all of them harm the edge in sence of edge retention Deteriorate `s extremely.

I think all expierencend sharpeners would call a stropping is less effective then a touchup on stones. So when i was in work, in my long freehand sharpening phase, i had to touch up the knife after a thinning, and sharpening about once a day in pro business, using various stones like Coticule, Jnat or Chosera 5k.
With the same knife (1.2562/F2 Toolsteel HRC 67) i can work now for about 1 week. Then i do a touchup with the system at home, and it will last one week again. I never go below Chosera 5k, mostly a Jnat Suita is enough. And this takes less then 5 minutes for one knife.

Edge retention is a mix of mainly sharpening angle, used steel (including heat treatment) and sharpening equipment that have to fit the knifesteel. For freehanding experience is really important for sure.

I habe tested some other sharpening systems as well.... And i always compared the same angle of sharpening with the same stones (Chosera 5 and 10 k in this test) with Edge Pro/some clones, the Scorpion, and freehand. Same level of sharpness (HHT-2 @ 5k, HHT-5 @ 10k)
The edge retention compared to freehand sharpening was about 10% better with the EP, with the Skorpion it was about 200% better.

So what is the difference? What makes it so much better?..... While freehanding we have to control the angle, and even if i hit it perfectly there is much pressure on the stone (about 700g on maybe 2,5 inches of the blade). With EP Systems it is more about the pressure (about 600g per Inch of edge), with the Skorpion it is about (at finish stage! with pressure control!) 50-150 g on about 2,5 inches of the blade....

This is the only reason i can imagine.

Greets Sebastian.
 
"1.2562/F2 Toolsteel HRC 67"

Did you mainly make the experiences you describe (limited edge retention from strops) on such radically hard, probably brittle knives? I did notice unloaded (newspaper) works a lot less repeatably on ZDP, AS etc compared to eg Shirogami...
 
Sharpchef said:
The poor technique is the main cause for failure, for sure. But believe me i try so many different strops and compounds and all of them harm the edge in sence of edge retention Deteriorate `s extremely.

I think all expierencend sharpeners would call a stropping is less effective then a touchup on stones. So when i was in work, in my long freehand sharpening phase, i had to touch up the knife after a thinning, and sharpening about once a day in pro business, using various stones like Coticule, Jnat or Chosera 5k.
With the same knife (1.2562/F2 Toolsteel HRC 67) i can work now for about 1 week. Then i do a touchup with the system at home, and it will last one week again. I never go below Chosera 5k, mostly a Jnat Suita is enough. And this takes less then 5 minutes for one knife.

Edge retention is a mix of mainly sharpening angle, used steel (including heat treatment) and sharpening equipment that have to fit the knifesteel. For freehanding experience is really important for sure.

I habe tested some other sharpening systems as well.... And i always compared the same angle of sharpening with the same stones (Chosera 5 and 10 k in this test) with Edge Pro/some clones, the Scorpion, and freehand. Same level of sharpness (HHT-2 @ 5k, HHT-5 @ 10k)
The edge retention compared to freehand sharpening was about 10% better with the EP, with the Skorpion it was about 200% better.

So what is the difference? What makes it so much better?..... While freehanding we have to control the angle, and even if i hit it perfectly there is much pressure on the stone (about 700g on maybe 2,5 inches of the blade). With EP Systems it is more about the pressure (about 600g per Inch of edge), with the Skorpion it is about (at finish stage! with pressure control!) 50-150 g on about 2,5 inches of the blade....

This is the only reason i can imagine.

Greets Sebastian.
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You do understand that even 700g of pressure on 2 inches, or 50mm, is basically non-existent to the steel. Aka assuming your are working a bevel in the range of 0.5mm thick, tje pressure experienced is 280 kPa (or to put it in perspective 0.28 MPa when your yield of steel is 500MPa).

Yes pressure spikes will occur due to the thinness but they will basically occur no matter what pressure you use. But even then. You are talking about a 1600 times increase to approach yield, which is highly unlikely.
 
As a side note that was just a straight bearing pressure calc, the shear stress at the edge is probably higher if you are hitting that small a bevel but still unlikely to be at any level close to critical.
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
"1.2562/F2 Toolsteel HRC 67"

Did you mainly make the experiences you describe (limited edge retention from strops) on such radically hard, probably brittle knives? I did notice unloaded (newspaper) works a lot less repeatably on ZDP, AS etc compared to eg Shirogami...
Click to expand...

This steel with good heat treatment is probably less brittle than any japanese knife i try`ed so far.

And yes i did some tests on ordinary steels like shirogami, aogami etc. and it works.
With this expierience i can say that the effect is transferable.... to other steels... My Munetoshi white 2 is now cabable to do 2 Weeks of homecooking with Gokumyo 20k finish. Without the system the edge is killed about 2-8 meals....

Matus will test this.

Greets Sebastian.
 
With super high hardness like that you have to sacrifice alot on thickness to get a edge that holds up, hurts performance more than I like.
 
Sharpchef said:
This steel with good heat treatment is probably less brittle than any japanese knife i try`ed so far.

And yes i did some tests on ordinary steels like shirogami, aogami etc. and it works.
With this expierience i can say that the effect is transferable.... to other steels... My Munetoshi white 2 is now cabable to do 2 Weeks of homecooking with Gokumyo 20k finish. Without the system the edge is killed about 2-8 meals....

Matus will test this.

Greets Sebastian.
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If your knife edge only lasts 2-8 meals, it's time to throw away the glass cutting board... ;)
 
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