I just wanna say

[Sharpchef]

We will see..... .

Gretings.

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

A meal can translate to a few cuts in a steak and peeling a few spuds or "bowlloads of fine diced aromatics, ten kinds of veg plus herb garnish plus maybe some protein, 5 portions" .... razor sharp after 8 of the latter (without abrasive maintenance) is beyond the average persons knives

 

[natto]

My Munetoshi white 2 is now cabable to do 2 Weeks of homecooking with Gokumyo 20k finish. Without the system the edge is killed about 2-8 meals....

You can sharpen anything freehand, a chef, did that many years, and a Munetoshi holds up two meals on a bad day:scratchhead:

 

[Sharpchef]

I did my tests, with each sharpening (Chosera 5k /10k / Jnat) 11times for each with freehand sharpening, (Chosera 10k with EP) 11 times, and Chosera 10k, Jnat with scorpion system 11times.
All of this tests where made with about the same amount of vedgetable, fruit and meat, cheese and herbs.

I work as headchef in a school and a hotel. In the school i use almost the same ingredients (ok some are cut more some less....) and in the hotel i use the same menu in 2 week exchange.

If i take only the outcome with Naniwa 10k sharpening : it was the following in average (as said tested 11times) . The test was stopped when it was no more possible to cut an ripe tomato without efford.

cooked meals 10k finish by hand:max 110, 123, 145, 122, 130, 99, 117, 125, 110, 121, 134
cooked meals 10k finish with EP:max 115, 124, 167, 155, 134, 114, 117, 167, 156, 134, 145
cooked meals 10k finish with scorpion:max 350, 325, 345, 405, 378, 399, 425, 359, 412, 434, 389

With Jnats and the scorpion system it was nearly double.....

I will prove this for anybody how doupt it. And it seems that even with pure carbon steels like Shirogami etc. the effect is the same, with much less edge retention for shure, but 4times better with really shaving sharp kinves (and yes they get dull within time, it is only steel!).. And it only shows the outcome with my cutting technique on my plastic boards.

Greets Sebastian.

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

meal = portion, one person served lunch?

 

[Sharpchef]

meal = portion, one person served lunch?

Please PM me, it might be a total translation damage ????? As you can speak and read german?


Greets Sebastian.

 

[natto]

Sebastian, some people might be offended by your posts, like Mune not holding an edge, TF being crap, ...

 

[malexthekid]

No one can dispute your numbers but they still are not proof that your jig provides the ultimate edge retention... just more a potential reflection on your handsharpening in comparison...

It also does not answer rhe issue that it still doesn't allow for following the geometry and profile of the blade and you are actually getting a continuous angle change across the blade.

 

[Sharpchef]

No one can dispute your numbers but they still are not proof that your jig provides the ultimate edge retention... just more a potential reflection on your handsharpening in comparison...

It also does not answer rhe issue that it still doesn't allow for following the geometry and profile of the blade and you are actually getting a continuous angle change across the blade.

There may be a better thing than this system, i don`t doupt this.....

Another Jiig Manufacturer that offers a free sharpening service, observed my handsharpening and it was about 90% (if we count the Magna Tec Jiig as 100% )... He stated that there is no need for me to use a sharpening system.
So if i can reach razor sharp level by hand, why i should use a Jiig.... Because the real razor sharp edges '(again HHT-5 level without loadet strops!) are not good in terms of edge retention, especially when cutting on hard plastic boards.

So can anybody of you, sharpen a knife freehand to this high sharpness with a usefull outcome in kitchen? After rock chopping maybe 10 onions the most knifes will not cut ripe tomatoes anymore....... So this is not usefull. Therefore the common conclusion is, sharpening at about 5-6k level is enough to keep the bite.

And this is for sure only the potential reflection of my handsharpening VS the different Jiigs...

This can also be proven with rope cutting tests, like many russian guys do, maybe with paper cutting tests, but it don`t reflect the edge retention in the kitchen.

So if you got any idea, for a better testing, let me know.

@natto: If they are offended, btw. i don`t know why? who is offended? The manufacturer, the dealer?...... My Munetoshi complaint was like, the edge retention is not better then Kato out of the same steel.... ? And i think this is what a forum like this meant for... Discussion about knives.... If not, sorry. Is it just about, i bought a knife, like it, and some german guy states it is not (in his opinion)? I see no offence here, sorry.

This may also be a problem, because i dislike most japanese knifes, because they don `t fit to my cutting technique, and the reactivity of most San Mai knifes with pure iron is too much for western pro business.... At Home i can life with this disadvantage, and like them, because of their sometimes unique grind (especially Kato san), but from the technical point of view, the most used japanese steels are not good enough (in edge retention mainly/and not because the steel is bad, the heat treatment doesn`t fit my demand!). If i would compare maybe my new Catcheside SC125 San Mai with Kato, WillC is the winner for sure (and this with comparable steel and price).
And there are japanese knifes that can hold up in pro business (again only my opinion, with my cutting motion etc.....) like Watanabe Pro series with stainless San Mai Aogami 2....
And his knifes (with the right/fitting sharpening angle) can compare to western ones.

Greets Sebastian.

 

[natto]

Your statement to the Mune can't be knife discussing, because we never discuss knives that only last 2-8 meals.

 

[Salty dog]

This discussion reminds me of a similar one we had about five years ago.

Bottom line is what ever works for the individual. For me, I'm happy with the results I achieve hand sharpening.

 

[Sharpchef]

Your statement to the Mune can't be knife discussing, because we never discuss knives that only last 2-8 meals.

:dazed:

Sorry,

Hier auf Deutsch:

Es geht darum, das eine Klinge wie z.B. das Munetoshi aus Shiro 2, geschärft mit sehr hohen Körnungen, mit einem flachen Winkel (also ca. 12-15 Grad) nach 2 Mahlzeiten keine reife Tomate mehr schneiden kann! nicht mehr und nicht weniger! Und das hat nichts damit zu tun das ich zu dumm zu schärfen währe!

translation:

It is all about, a blade like the munetoshi (shiro2) , sharpened by hand with 10k + with a angle like 12-15 degree, is no longer sufficent to cut a ripe tomato. Nothing more, and this is the reality, but has absolutely nothing to do with munetoshi knives, just used as an example! because they are good heat treated (in your opinion, and not bad in my opinion, just stated that my Kato lasts longer!).

And this is no more a discussion this is like "talk to my hands, face don`t listen"......

Any discussion, that is made by one (like me, and i really try to see all arguments... :surrendar: , ) is no discussion, when everybody seems to be better in handsharpening, feel lucky and do it. This is not wrong, i still do handsharpening and i still dont like Jiigs like EP, to slow, less control no thinnning etc...., Handsharpening with knowledge is superior to that no question.

Robin and Matus will test my edges and then we can talk about advantages....

Greets Sebastian.

 

[Sharpchef]

This discussion reminds me of a similar one we had about five years ago.

Bottom line is what ever works for the individual. For me, I'm happy with the results I achieve hand sharpening.

Thanks for that, and this is for sure the answer! I don`t know the discussion mentioned but i can say for me this special jiig work better, and so this is my way. Nothing else.

Greets Sebastian.

 

[guari]

Bottom line is what ever works for the individual. For me, I'm happy with the results I achieve hand sharpening.

Thank god someone said this. Whatever works & be happy about it.

 

[bennyprofane]

In case some people missed sharpchefs point (lost in translation): Usually it is said that there is no point in going to very high grits like 20.000 because the edge won't last, his point is that with pressure control (very light pressure) and perfect angle control, this not only works but gives a razor edge which will last considerably longer than a normal edge at 5000-6000 grit.

That is also one of the reasons the Edge Pro will fail at this: These very light pressures are not possible.

 

[Chuckles]

I just wanna say that learning to sharpen a japanese knife on a whetstone is really really fun.

Wow. We started there and ended with the most pedantic guided device sales pitch I've ever read. I don't really enjoy hand sharpening anymore but guided devices look like a miserable way to pass time. Of course my opinion and to each their own.

No offense intended, I like seeing the passion.

 

[gaijin]

Wow.

lus1:

 

[natto]

Sorry Sebastian, I have totally missed the 20k grit in your original post. I am sorry for taking another thread off the rails.

 

[Sharpchef]

Sorry Sebastian, I have totally missed the 20k grit in your original post. I am sorry for taking another thread off the rails.

No Problem ..... I don`t think you are the only one . Without this information my whole writting makes really no sence.

Greets Sebastian.

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

Discussions? on a DISCUSSION FORUM?!

 

[Chuckles]

Go for it. Not trying to stop anybody. :whiteflag:

 

[Sharpchef]

I am on the way to sharpen a blade of Robin Dalman and of Matus, lets see what they think about it....

Greets Sebastian.

 

[Krassi]

And i am pretty sure ill go for the "robust version" of that bogdan3000 muahaha

only trouble will be that my knifes will last too long and i only got 30 ..meeeh
I guess there is a lot like religious stuff regarding handsharpening.. well since i got way too many jnats i got to the point were my hand sharpening lacks the skills to fully unleash the power of the stones i have. And i hate this!

Also i guess Sharpchef treats his knifes like you would treat a car in a crashtest .. so if something lasts longer than thats interesting..
As you might guess there is a big sharpeningsystem virus infecting us here in germany.. so more stuff to come muahahahaha!

Seeya, Daniel

 

[Jovidah]

Also i guess Sharpchef treats his knifes like you would treat a car in a crashtest .. so if something lasts longer than thats interesting..
As you might guess there is a big sharpeningsystem virus infecting us here in germany.. so more stuff to come muahahahaha!

Seeya, Daniel

Oddly enough it seems to be the same in the Netherlands; on a Dutch knifeforum almost everyone is using jigs and guided system. Maybe they're more useful with outdoor knives and folders? As that seems to be all they're interested in...

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

Doing small blades on a bench stone feels like it takes a lot of effort per inch of edge sharpened. Same with large blades and guided systems

 

[Benuser]

Outdoor knives and folders users don't seem to give a clue about geometry.

 

[Eloh]

Doing small blades on a bench stone feels like it takes a lot of effort per inch of edge sharpened. Same with large blades and guided systems

I feel like this system is a bit different compared to the edge pro etc though. You pretty much ARE 'freehand' sharpening, just with a fixed angle. Everything else is virtually identical..

 

[Jovidah]

Outdoor knives and folders users don't seem to give a clue about geometry.

No kidding... I guess it's less important when you're not using them to actually cut and seem more interesting in polishing bevels into mirrors. I guess they might actually prefer a knife that's thick behind the edge because it allows for bigger bevels to make shiny.

Doing small blades on a bench stone feels like it takes a lot of effort per inch of edge sharpened. Same with large blades and guided systems

Have to agree there. I hate sharpening smaller knives, and I always get impatient.

 

[Benuser]

+1!
Believe me, you will get used to small knives as well! But I do remember very well working on friends' SAKs...

 

[Jovidah]

I'm not sure I'll ever get any good at them... I don't use them much.... therefore I don't sharpen them much...therefore I keep disliking sharpening them... leading me to use them even less. Thank god for speed peelers.
With cheapo Robert Herder parers I just don't really care and put the handle straight against the side of the stone. Makes them look horrible but I can't be arsed to care.